Lets talk about the MERC GT3 FFB?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LokiD, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,345
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    Got at least 5 people here who can help answer that themselves, but they haven't in a year apparently.
     
  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,926
    Likes Received:
    3,876
    Thats amazing.

    I don't know how much Mercedes is right or wrong, but all principles that some dislikes are simply explainable, and was explained.

    I have learned from AC DRM mod release that simracers freak out if something is done different and original rather than just copying already proved path, that some wrongly refers as consistency right there. Maybe that is so because it is not always easy to tell whats better and whats worse in terms of realism, but easy to judge in terms of handling and habit. I have understood that this can have unfortunate effect in some cases with more unique cars, or if some has different observations, or even data proof which doesn't correlate with present habits and knowledge of critical mass of simracers. It is actually an issue which few is aware of. In future "pro simulators" and "home simulators" will massively increase the gap, and thats not because hardware, but because home users are asking for that.
     
    Korva7 likes this.
  3. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    Or maybe you know... it's just wrong. If it was right/real S397 would have said that already or just put in the release notes like they did with the "inverted" damper settings.
    The Radical behaves completely different of all the other cars and still have a compatible FFB. The Merc is just an average GT3 with nothing special.
     
  4. Kickbox

    Kickbox Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    27
    I think the the GT3 cars should have a adjustable caster.
     
  5. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    You'll have to talk to SRO for that ;) it's a homologation formula, setups are limited to keep balance.
     
    d0nd33 likes this.
  6. d0nd33

    d0nd33 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    78
    How do you even know this?
    Because in other sims it behaves accordingly to other cars?
    What if they made it behave like other cars to avoid a discussion like this?
    Again, I don't mean to disagree, there may be an error. I don't know the real car, still waiting for an official answer.
    The point raised by @JimmyT is very valid, one must be able to ask for a refund for cars he does not want.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  7. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    Because of how the class work ;) and that's just my opinion. Reinforced by car specs compared to others and how the Radical (a non official GT3 that is basically a prototype) behaves while keeping it in line with all the other cars in game, the AMG simply doesn't do it (in this ffb aspect).
    Then again if that's how it's supposed to be the devs would have said it already and included in the release notes.
     
  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,345
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    I think you're giving too much credit there. There were discussions regarding the F2 for ages and nothing was really said officially until they released a new version with unrealistically high caster as default, with a brief explanation that it was to help with weaker wheels, and that was pretty much it. For that reason people still see it as a 'fix' when it was just to stop people complaining who expected the car to feel like other cars, instead of understanding that it worked differently.

    So I wouldn't see a lack of response as any real indicator.
     
    avenger82 likes this.
  9. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    If that worked perfectly they just have to say so ;) my bet: there is something wrong in the physics engine on some specific setups, they'll only say when they find it out like they did with tires
     
    d0nd33 and Louis like this.
  10. d0nd33

    d0nd33 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    78
    Can you be more precise, please? What do you mean "how the class work"? What specs are you talking about?
    The culprit hasn't been posted yet, road car:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Source
    GT3:
    [​IMG]
    Source - Description of spring and damper parts shown (a bit off topic but interesting)
    I wonder if the piston at the right gives the same "Susp Pos" as logs do... did the devs ever settle this?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  11. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    578
    I have made a discovery on this issue. I have used the vehicle on another sim rig using a Logitech G25 and the Merc's steering feels very similar to the other GT3 cars on that wheel (and rig). Now I must conclude that the Mercedes AMG GT3 is not the problem. So unless there is a compatibility issue with Fanatec CSW V2 and V2.5 wheels, which I doubt as there would have been more complaints from other users of these, (I've used both on my rig) then there is an issue with something else in my PC, Simulator rig or cabling.

    Please bear in mind that this issue ONLY occurs when driving this particular vehicle and is still evident when I use my rig. At least I'm trying to narrow down the problem.
    I reiterate, with my rig the FFB appears to get lighter as I put more turn on in the corner, almost to the point of seeming to be disabled, but only on the Merc. All other rear wheel drive vehicles get more load / resistance as I put more turn on until tyres lose grip (that's physics for ya). And it doesn't happen for me on a different wheel.
    Another thing I've noticed is that the motion platform still gets the feed from the higher G in the corner, if that's of any use to anyone checking (is anyone checking?).
    I know all cars have differing attributes and I'm not asking for all cars to be the same, just pointing out that there is an issue and I'm not the only person to have noted this.
    I only posted in this thread to support those others who have the issue. I've done all I can to try to shed light on this and now I'm moving on. Going back to the Apex Modding version of the AMG, it's better anyway. :) Oh, and it's FREE. :p
     
    avenger82 and LokiD like this.
  12. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    1,216
    same as the t300 for me then.
     
    JimmyT likes this.
  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,345
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    Sorry to beat a dead horse, but this is exactly what checking FFB output would show (or wouldn't show, since there's evidently no issue there). Once you isolate that the issue is after FFB output (something between that and getting to your wheel, probably software since hardware obviously doesn't change between cars) you can either fix it or just not worry about it (and I hear you there, sometimes it's not worth the hassle). All the "I feel this" stuff doesn't really provide any illumination.

    If you're keen, I'd say back up your player folder and start from nothing, and try loading a different wheel profile (of a wheel you know works) and reassign your controls, in case some default setting is affecting your wheel in some way. We know from d0nd33's earlier graphs that the Merc has lower FFB in corners, so it sounds like you have a setting that's making that force unusually low. STS or something similar.
     
    JimmyT likes this.
  14. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    390
    I'll quote myself from page 2.


    "It's a very simple story. Different steering wheels reflect the FFB in different ways. While you hardly feel any understeer in the steering wheel with a G27 on the Callaway Corvette or the Radical, it is very noticeable with the CSW V2. If the understeer with the G27 on the AMG GT3 is well noticeable, it is much too extreme with the CSW V2, so extreme that after a certain resistance there is suddenly no more restoring torque and you are inclined to suddenly tear the steering wheel because it becomes much too smooth. During the phase where there is no resistance, you don't get any information about the driving condition, it feels like the FFB is deactivated."

    I own a G27 and a CSW V2. Before the V2 i used a V1 and with it it was much more annoying compared to V2. That is not an issue with your rig.
    Logitech devices are so weak that the signals become much more compressed by default, so differences are less noticeable. It needs nearly the whole power for the soft forces only so thats clearly, that you can´t notice the loss of higher forces, because it can´t generate it. It´s simple at its limit long before. The same is true for Assetto Corsa, where you can feel the loss of power with understeer much less with the G27 than with the CSW V2.
    I can tell you, even with a Simucube the FFB of the AMG is weak, bad, ugly or whatever. Logitech devices are imho so crappy, that they only provide centering forces and vibration effects
     
  15. fsuarez79

    fsuarez79 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    582
    Yes, pretty much this.
    The Merc felt very similar to the other GT3's with older Logitech wheel (G920). I currently use a TS-PC and the light FFB while cornering is more noticeable. So the stronger the wheel, the more noticeable the "issue" will be.
    Does it bother me? No. I just decide to increase caster a little bit and spend more time racing than complaining about it in the forums ;)
     
    GPNeville and Mikk Quickmikk like this.
  16. EsxPaul

    EsxPaul Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2018
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    25
    That makes me feel like a lowly peasant :(:p
     
  17. d0nd33

    d0nd33 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    78
    I was going to post some WheelCheck graphs but I noticed that the user DW1 on RaceDepartment confirmed my doubts about its use. Nice! It's a must read! I think I postponed too much the purchase of a proper scale to test on my own.
    I don't know anything about the CSW, but when I had the GT3 RS it was a pain to setup, it had too many options and there wasn't a sweet spot in common with every car.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  18. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    578
    Just curious how you adjusted the caster on this vehicle, in my garage menu caster is locked for the S397 GT3 cars.
     
    LokiD likes this.
  19. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,345
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    Interesting theory (credit also to Andregee obviously), considering the cheaper wheels made the F2 'issue' worse.

    I'm not sure I can take it seriously when @Andregee also says the Logitech wheels are basically only good for centering and vibration - if that's all you're getting from a G27 you definitely have some settings wrong.
     
  20. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    1,216
    ive said this time and time again, rf2 should or (would be nice) to have two ffb settings one for DD wheels and one for non DD wheels. I wouldn't want to destroy the feeling the DD guys have but like the F2 there was a compromise for us peasants hehe (t300 here hardly a cheap wheel)

    Thats all it would take. Maybe unlock the caster for us guys.... at the end of the day its a game what harm can it do?
     

Share This Page