Historical Cars shifting plausibility ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jual, Oct 15, 2018.

  1. jual

    jual Registered

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    I have found out that shifting historical cars (e.g.brabbam bt44, auto clutch not activited) without clutch und also full throttle shifting do not damage the gear-box.Is that true ?
    Also I can e.g. shift from the third with full rev. into the first.
     
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  2. Nitrometh

    Nitrometh Registered

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    The gearbox damage model needs to be reworked. It is outdated. I don't know if there is anything planned by S397.
     
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  3. ADSTA

    ADSTA Registered

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    You can damage and kill the engine from over revving when down shifting too quickly.
     
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  4. ECAR_Tracks

    ECAR_Tracks Registered

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    Yes but it's all. It's not enough for a good clutch/gearbox model.
     
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  5. Alex72

    Alex72 Registered

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    Hey, even ETS2/ATS truck simulator have grinding gears! :D But yes there are some things missing with manual shifting in rF2. I hope we get it updated to a more realistic level.
     
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  6. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Yes, transmission damage should be accurately modeled, so that everyone will turn it off as soon as they discover that you can break you F1 car with a single mis-shifting. :mad::D:p.. but it needs to be done.
     
  7. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Without a dynamic feedback to the shifter, manual shifting is just a distraction. Nearly all F1 manual boxes are non-synchro and use a technique commonly referred to as "rev it and stuff it". An astute driver feels the engagement to modulate throttle just after engagement. Take that feeling away and manual shifting with an H-pattern is no more realistic than paddles.
     
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  8. Alex72

    Alex72 Registered

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    Its way funnier though. Still hoping for better implementation.
     
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  9. jual

    jual Registered

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    A sim is always a approximation of the real world.
    It is right, not all is possible or at least with an enormous effort.
    But in my opinion driving old cars with H-pattern is very closer to that driving with paddles. Also it requires more skills particularly heel and toe, one hand diving, and so on.
    An other point are races if users make extremely fast gear changes without using clutch in situations that are with a real functional H-pattern are not possible.
    I think to implement a gear failure could not be a great problem and hoping the devs will change that.
     
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  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    It would be good to have the option to do it better, but we need to remember that when it comes to competition (especially if there are prizes) some people will do whatever they can to gain an advantage. This could mean using some programs etc to 'fake' a manual shift. The game can only judge what its inputs say; if a program is sending normal manual shifts (albeit very good ones) then the game can't tell the difference.

    Of course this is already true to some extent. It's surely possible to use a program to generate, say, throttle input, and use the game's data to work out how much throttle to apply. It's just the nature of remote gaming that there will always be potential loopholes, it's why proper competitions get everyone together where the hardware is controlled.

    Proper shifting definitely requires shifting skills, but if you forced (as much as possible) people to do that - bearing in mind some people still don't have clutch pedals, so there has to be some leeway - they'd probably adjust within a week of solid practice. They might occasionally make a mistake (which in itself is cool, in an historical sense) and maybe lose a tenth or three with less than perfect technique, but the drivers 3 seconds off the pace will stay about there.

    So while I'd like it to be done properly, and the game to monitor and penalise you in some way if you do get it wrong, we'll never be able to guarantee that everyone's doing it the same way and to a fair extent it's less important than other aspects of driving. A little like adjusting brake bias within each lap to maximise performance, or play around with engine boost / mixture to maximise speed and efficiency in a number of modern series, it's hard to do it at first but if you give it time it's just another skill you can learn. The driving itself is still the hard part.
     
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  11. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    ATM I'm not racing online. I'm racing offline most of the time at Nordschleife. I too would like an option to enable most realistic clutch simulation, especially when driving historic cars. Even more because rFactor2 is a simulation. Of course the implementation have to work for online races too. For online races maybe you get a disadvantage, but you will get more immersion too. More immersion would be enough for me to enable realistic clutch support for online races.
     
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  12. Moe Faster

    Moe Faster Registered

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    we desperately need a ffb shifter, & probably a load cell kit for the clutch peddle . . . that would be sooo special.
     
  13. ADSTA

    ADSTA Registered

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    HE pedals use load cells for all 3 pedals.
    It is just a way to get a signal from the pedals that then goes to a circuit board.
    From HE site:
    "Load cells are used on all three pedals. On the throttle and clutch they work as positional sensors, on the brake they measure the pressure put on the pedal.

    Unlike designs with rotary potentiometers, load cells provide true linear output in relation to your pedal input. Their accuracy and durability are unmatched as they do not wear over time."
     
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  14. Chris Lesperance

    Chris Lesperance Registered

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    I agree rF2 does need a new transmission/gearbox model. I have been driving a little bit more of AC lately just because of the lack of historic GT content and modding that is happening in rF2, but I do like the way that AC does do the transmission model. Something like that would be a huge plus in rF2.
     
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  15. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    I just think it's strange that people only talk about gearbox model for manual cars. Are you all aware this stuff is still present in modern cars? It can die due to wear, temperature, etc? It can die if you hit a wall even if you dont damage the rest of the car hard enough?
     
  16. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Will Mazeo I don't think that's true, I'm sure everyone's aware gearbox/drivetrain issues can still occur (and occur because of the driver) in semiautomatic cars (physical damage can occur in automatic cars too, or plain wear and tear, but in the context of drivetrain modelling I don't think that's strictly relevant - if I hit a wall and the car doesn't work anymore, whether it's because of drivetrain damage or engine damage or something else makes little difference).

    This thread is about shifting, and having to shift properly, so it's all about manual.

    @Moe Faster Load cell for the clutch? In the end it probably works fine, but that seems - like the throttle - a place where load cell doesn't make any sense except for durability/reliability. You have the potential then for exceeding the pedal pressure needed to disengage the clutch, without moving the pedal far enough to actually disengage the clutch. The only pedal where pressure absolutely makes sense is the brake, because it's a pressurised system (and brake-by-wire aims to keep the same feel as that).
     
  17. jual

    jual Registered

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    HE uses load cell in clutch because it is affordable and reduces production price to use same construction for all pedals.Clutch and throttle are position sensitive, rather weight for brake.
    High grade reliable Hall sensors are very expensive.
    For my TM mod I use automotive sensor regular price over 100€ each.
     
  18. Moe Faster

    Moe Faster Registered

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    perhaps (no offense) Lazza has never experienced a clutch failure . . . nothing like pressing in the clutch pedal & it STAYS there on the floor (panic ensues) or you press on the pedal & it won't go down at all (panic ensues) . . . there may be a good 6 or 7 failure modes that a load cell can simulate, but perhaps it's not the right tool for the job as they do get pricey. my point being that we CAN much better simulate clutch & transmission interactions with the tech available today, like a ffb shifter for instance.
     
  19. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    Well... there is a ffb shifter available, but I recall it costs over $2k (USA).
     
  20. ECAR_Tracks

    ECAR_Tracks Registered

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