Is "countersteering" faster?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by green serpent, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Before you say it,... no, I don't think drifting is faster on a tarmac surface... but I am not talking about that... I'm talking about the 'thing'.

    Let it be known that I totally lack the technical lingusitic ability to discuss such nuanced differences in how to turn a car around a corner... all I know is that I do a certain 'thing', and it seems to be a HELL of a lot faster than when I don't do the 'thing'.

    I will now attempt to explain the 'thing' in a way that barely even makes sense to me. Sorry if you've heard me talk about the 'thing' before, I will try to keep this brief...

    So what's the 'thing'? Basically the 'thing' is when you turn into a corner and then apply countersteer (a slight steering force opposite to the direction of the turn), WITHOUT going into opposite lock, and this seems to make the car turn sharper and allows you to apply much more throttle.

    To clarify what the 'thing' is step by step... You are approching a right hand corner and carrying a lot of speed. You brake and turn right into the corner. The car starts to turn, but then you start understeering due to excessive speed, miss the apex and go off the track and into a ball of flames. Now... rewind a bit, this time we will do the thing.You are approching a right hand corner and carrying a lot of speed. You brake and turn right into the corner. The car starts to turn, but then, right before the understeer kicks in, you start to apply a small amount of countersteer (not going into opposite lock), and give it some beans. Miraculously, this makes the car turn harder, and you find yourself in this no man's land of the car drifting but not really drifting, the rear end is sliding, and you are countering slightly with countersteer, but the tyres are still visually turning in the direction of the turn and not going into opposite lock. You sling-shot out the other side of corner faster than ever before, having gotten on the throttle sooner than you ever thought possible.

    In less dramatic fashion, I have done a similar thing in normal daily driving at normal speeds... before a long sweeping corner, I might accidentally apply slighly too much steering, and then I spend the vast majority of the corner actually steering in the opposite direction of the turn as I unwind the lock. It's a pretty odd feeling when you are unwinding the steering well before the apex.

    I know that motorbike riders do a very similar thing while cornering, and I wonder if this is somehow related?

    Anyway, is this 'turn in hard then countersteer and apply throttle as soon as possible without going into opposite lock' thing a legitimate and known about phenomenon? Is it unique to rF2, or simply an idosyncrasy of my aggressive driving style? I can spend 50, 100 or even more laps trying to drive as smooth and fast as physically possible, then often I will throw caution to the wind, do the 'thing' and boom, I gain over 1 second in the next lap.

    Do you think this method is faster, or is there yet a more sublte and less agressive balance between under and oversteer that I lack the fine motor skills to achieve?
     
  2. Emery

    Emery Registered

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  3. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    If you watch some of the fastest guys like Rudy, he uses this technique

    Wether or not it’s realistic I don’t know as I’m not a racing driver
     
  4. boblevieux

    boblevieux Registered

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    You mean turning past the optimal slip angle ? It's good if you manage the tires and the engine braking well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  5. Supa

    Supa Registered

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    It's called weight shift
     
  6. stonec

    stonec Registered

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    If you watch old videos from Alonso's Renault years, I think you will find a bit similar technique being used. Alonso adapted to a special style where he quickly turned the wheel past the slip angle at entry, which introduced a momentary understeer. The reason it worked was the combination of the Michelin wide tire and the backwards center of gravity of Bob Bell designed Renault cars of 2003-2006. In 2018 no F1 driver uses this technique. I would say driving technique in general is highly related to the car you drive and such a style wouldn't work in general.

     
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  7. boblevieux

    boblevieux Registered

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    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I think most of you have misunderstood (unless I have :D). He's not talking about inducing understeer by turning more, he's talking about entering the corner, then applying throttle as well as straightening the wheel immediately. So you're tempting the rear end to come around with traction loss under power, but also reducing your steering (or even wavering around centre, from when I've seen fast guys do it) so that it never does come around if you keep doing it right.

    As for realism or legitimacy, I'm not sure. As I said I've seen guys doing it, and fast guys doing it, and I can see what they're doing even if I haven't managed to replicate it myself. But I haven't seen similar while watching real F1 or other series, even on qualifying laps the drivers will sometimes quickly turn the wheel in a counter- direction to catch a small slide but then they'll almost always go back to steering like they were into the corner.

    I could understand if they only did it in qualifying but avoided it during the race to save the tyres, but even in qualifying you never see them driving with the back end out of corners - from the trackside cams you can see the cars constantly have some angle on them, and you need that to get the rear wheels to peak angle, but the steering wheel doesn't show it the way fast sim guys (in rF2) do.

    *I think maybe there's also some relation to real drivers generally applying more steering input through the first part of the corner than we do in rF2 (perhaps not exclusively, but I haven't driven much else). Even with apparently realistic steering ratio you aren't rewarded by doing the standard 'quarter-turn turn-in' you see very often in real life, and to some extent it's because immediately after turn-in people are straightening and applying power.
     
  9. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    From what I’ve seen the fast guys do, they turn in sharply, to get the car pointed for the exit of the corner, and as soon as the trajectory is right, they straighten the wheel to stop the slipping of the tyre.

    This all happens so quickly that they don’t overload the tyres and gain huge amounts a grip by doing so.

    It’s a very hard technique to master

    The best way I can describe it is, a controlled and very quick over rotation.

    I don’t know if that’s what the op is on about, but that’s what’s I’ve seen done
     
  10. stonec

    stonec Registered

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    This is how you drive a modern F1 car, yes. There is no room for any slides, but you do want to get the car rotated quickly and then as quickly as possible straighten the wheel. Probably the most important lesson I learned when beginning with sim racing.
     
  11. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    As other said, I think it's a lot car/setup related. And another way to describe it could be to induce the car in a very shallow slide, within the limit of optimal slip angle. Probably ,as modern tires like smaller slip angle than older tires, with modern formulas it is harder, as the margins to gain and not to loose are very thin. Once the car is rotating, applying throttle is a way to control the slide of the rear axle, that is describing an arc trajectory, on the front, countersteering or at least straightening the wheel is how you control the arc trajectory of the front axle. When those arcs, allow you to remain on the rubbered track, and within the slip angle limit of the tire, then you are in that "floating" status that many fast driver use to describe the car handling when they are damn fast : you are constantly and deliberately on the limit of grip.
     
  12. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    The problem is staying in this condition turn after turn, lap after lap, race after race.
     
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  13. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Thanks everyone for you're input. You all pretty much get what I'm talking about. Yes, it's pretty hard to master and it's a risky stratergy, really each time you do it is a risk. You are kind of just hoping that the transition between oversteer/normal at the exit or mid corner is nice and smooth and you don't get a bucket of oversteer.

    I should reiterate that often (not always) the action of turning in quite hard, then applying a small amount of countersteer (almost just a slight pressure in the other direction), can cause the rotation, or even snap oversteer (Even WITHOUT applying throttle.) The throttle can be used for more rotation in some circumstances, but often it is used for control of the initial roation caused by the counter steer. Again, this is hard to explain, I really want to make a video to show what I'm talking about, but even then It's quite subtle.

    So, turn in at fast speed, getting the front end at or slightly over the limit > as soon as possible, apply a small amount of countersteer (no throttle) > see if the car slightly rotates, if the car dosn't rotate, turn back into the corner as normal > if the car does rotate, apply as much throttle as you dare and continue to wind off the steering through the rest of the corner.

    The countersteer comes first, THEN slightly after apply throttle. It's like you're right on the edge of the limit and you're antisipating a slide, you preemptively countersteer before the slide, and the act of countersteer itself actually initiates the slide. "preemptive countersteer".
     
  14. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    This is a pretty poor example of what I'm talking about. Imagine this same thing but without going into opposite lock. Watch the cockpit view in slow motion, near the begining of the turn there is a VERY subtle counter steer, and then a small countersteer force is applied through the corner, before then getting too much oversteer and ruining the speed.

     
  15. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Go to 1.14 and put it on half speed. You'll see I turn in agressively and almost immediately turn back and apply throttle. It's actually a bit less subtle than I thought, which is why I probably stuffed it up.

    I usually get a lot of understeer on this corner and it feels painfully slow, but this way I'm able to get on the throttle early and countersteer through the corner.
     
  16. KittX

    KittX Registered

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    This habit actually saved me in few unexpected slide situations (I drive an RWD car) under some heavy conditions. I've done it almost on autopilot, because in racing sims it also works to predict and pervent from snap oversteer, like think ahead of the slide. But in that case you must straighten the wheel very quickly after you apply some amount of countersteer, do not wait until the car straightens itself. It's hard to describe the exact moment when to do that, but you'll feel, as soon as the car just about to start to exit a phase of oversteer, while you're still countersteering, straighten the wheel immidiately, and the car won't snap to the direction of countersteer then.

    Also if VR is not your preference I'd heavily suggest using 144hz monitor. Sync it at least at 120hz, so you won't overburn your videocard, and the connection between your input and car behaviour in actions like this will be much closer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  17. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    May be I'm wrong but is the same technique you use in karting: at first you need to break the stable condition (keep going straight ) you do this with a steer input , then your input device assume control of different parameters than before, for example throttle control angular velocity instead of linear speed.
    Is similar to landing an airplane: in landing condition throttle manage Vertical speed instead of linear speed, and pitch control horizontal speed instead of Vertical speed.
     
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  18. boblevieux

    boblevieux Registered

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    I think the Skip Barber is a good tool to learn that, as it handle like a faster car dancing on the limit.
    The historic F2 seems good too.
     
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  19. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Probbaly why I get on well with the newer F1 cars as opposed to older ones.
     

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