[REL] GP3 SERIES 2016/2017/2018 2.31

Discussion in 'Vehicles' started by Slow Motion, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    ehehehe a lot of questions... I'll try to answer but I must be forced to follow few rules. One is that I cannot tell everything because of I'm not so skilled to explain everything in the correct way it deserves, second reason is that things change very quickly in the racing world, so info I got refer to different "dates" and it is difficult to keep them together, third because teams do not like at all and didn't give the permission to reveal info on settings, specific performances, etc... and if they continue to give info is because I respected their wishes. Last reason is that the engineers I'm in contact tell me only part of the whole stuff.

    That said I can clarify that:

    1. Michael Borda is the person that developed the HARD and WET compounds of the GP3 since the beginning, not only for this last build. He developed the tires using confidential documentation of Pirelli at that time. Then I edited few values of the realtime section to match different performances for each compound, tuning performances and wear depending of info I got by a couple of drivers (one directly by the driver, others via team(s) engineers.

    2. Michael Borda never stops to develop his TGM formulas, so time by time he provided newer tires that I tested and reported, etc etc... For this last build he developed the rear tire time ago based on latest info I sent and newer info he got and I added new values into realtime section according with the new rF2 code.
    About front tire of the GP3: it is exactly the same tire of another mod that S397 is developing, but that is in use at rear, nothing of weird I'd say

    3. about S397 choices to rebuild or not old tires according to the new CPM, we all can hope that, but it takes time

    4. For sure rFactor2 has its limits in managing graphical and physical data, no doubts, but the level is really at the top of a sim that is sold like a game at few dollars and continuously developed. We all would like to have something better every day, but sometime we could stop thinking to what we already have... My personal opinion is that I'd love to have more physics than graphics improvements, because the physics is the stronger feature of rF2 and I'd love to try to develop and drive a car that, just for instance, can be fully sensitive to the different weather conditions and surfaces, but I must wait for few more time!
    Coming back to rF2, it is true that in some case real data must be "translated" a little bit more to match the behavior of the real car and that atm there are few areas of rF2 that are more difficult to be understood (at least to me!!). In such cases I followed a different approach, spending also a lot (very lot) of time:
    - test the car with known conditions and closed to real data I got by a team focusing on one single feature
    - record MoteC data and send them to the GP3 engineer (that is able to see, immediately, where I'm making a mistake in driving and where it is something to be fixed)
    - edit data and repeat all the process for n times until the mod behaves like the real car (obviously based on answers/comments of the GP3 engineer
    - last step (and this one can take long long time) waiting for the opinion of the driver(s) at their sim-rig(s) or at the workshop sim-rig of the team

    5. several people complained about the excessive understeer of the mod, but I was always confident to be on the right way, because no one driver of the GP3 and other professional drivers in that "ambient", that drove the GP3 mod never complained about it, as well as any GP3 engineer that analyzed the data. The one to whom I'm more in friendly relations (not sure it is correct in English, LOL), "Mr.D" always pushed me to drive in a different way when nothing in the MoteC data showed wrong data entered into rF2 files. And I too notice the understeer, but it is true it can be managed with a different driving style... understeer that is now less than before, especially at high speeds, due to the new tires that not only are based on the new CPM, but are developed on updated real data of Pirelli... Sincerely I'm not able to say how much is the new CPM, how much the new data, but I'm feeling that the GP3 is very very sensible to any minimum change, that what I'm able to feel driving the 2017 vs. the 2018 (where change only tires) I'm not able to feel with other mods.

    6. For this reason (= the unbelievable sensibility of the mod to any minimum change), I didn't edit any other value in the 2018 car.
    And this is the most important point in my personal opinion!
    I developed and tested a lot of mods, few (very few) times alone, the most of times together passionate mates, that in their working life have similar knowledge to what are developing here (= much more skilled than me!), but this is the first mod where any change is really immediately perceptible. The mod can behave differently if, for instance, 2 corners before you warmed tires too much just sliding for one second: it is something I never felt before and it means there is a so wide range for discovering the perfect setup for each different condition (weather, track, etc...), that the Dallara suggested setup used in the mod is the best starting point.

    For what I was able, I hope to have answered in a good way, also because I think to have bored a lot of people writing and writing about the GP3 mod, when we have a lot of great mods for rFactor 2, made with love and mainly for free by talented guys!
     
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  2. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Thanks for the answer!

    But now I'll have a few other questions to what you just said :)
    So the new rear tires are based on official data from manufacturer and the info from the tests you performed? This applies to all compounds (soft, medium , hard, wet)?
    What are the realtime values except tire wear? Are these used as input to tTool?
    Do you know what is the new mod S397 is working on that's using the same Pirelli tires used in front of GP3 2018?

    Regarding 5. I don't think this mod has excessive understeer. In general I would say it's easy to drive, has a lot of grip and is mostly forgiving (unless you really drive over the limit). This confirms it's close to reality. I found general rule that if a car slides too much or are very hard to drive at the limit, have unrealistic physics (unless it's AC Cobra:) ). With GP3 2018 I managed to drive flat out through many corners at Norschleife.

    I really appreciate the work you put into this mod, especially considering it's free (BTW where the hell is donate button?;)) . It's great you manage to convince and collaborate with other GP3 engineers, drivers and S397 to make this mod as close to reality as possible.
     
  3. Sebastien Sestacq

    Sebastien Sestacq Registered

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    very interesting to read you @Slow Motion
    the GP3 and USF2000 are the only modern open wheel I like and enjoy driving!!
    Thank you so much for BIG your work. ;)
     
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  4. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    New tires are based on official data as well and tuned depending of car behavior and info we got (HARD and WET). Value referring to different compounds (grip and wear) work exactly in the same range of previous tires. I spent several hours in tuning the original compounds (also with an eye to the sim/leagues needs) and new compounds can benefit of those hours I spent in the past. WET tire must be considered always a totally different tire...
    For other questions you are free to look at the TGM files and to the explanation of Michael Borda in his tech blog.
    About the mod that S397 is developing, I don't know if they already posted some picture and I'm not authorized to share info, sorry.

    To close this specific thread I must add, just to better answer to your previous post, that the mod was developed starting from the Physics Calculator spreadsheet version 0.22 and that Chris "redapg" entered hundreds and hundreds of "numbers". In the months, year, few times data were moved to newer versions of the spreadsheet and last spreadsheet he filled was the version 0.30.
    He also added several macro to the original spreadsheet to better match our needs, like showing specific look for data in the garage and for testing the mod in an easier and faster way (one click in the spreadsheet for exporting a different configuration for chassis, hdv, engine, etc...).
    In conclusion, the mod is fully developed using the Physics Calculator developed by Michael Borda and improved for our needs by Chris "redapg". It is useless I remark without the unbelievable job of Chris, the mod would never have been what it is!
    I can add there are still few data of minor relevance that are common to other ISI mods and that are present opening the original spreadsheet, entered by Michael Borda: some are the same of GP3, others could be different, but I have no way to know that... anyway they are really few and not very relevant.

    Here you can see a "page" of the spreadsheet, at the bottom the labels of all pages:

    physics.jpg
     
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  5. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    So these new tires that Michael Borda created and are based on official data from manufacturers (front from Pirelli and back from?) are only for hard and wet, or also other compounds? Or only hard and wet were tuned depending on info you got?
    Regarding tires modeling, I've read somewhere that sometimes ISI/S397 just buy tires and rip them apart to know it's structure.

    I've stumbled on this physics calculator spreadsheet a few months ago when it was updated after reading Michael Borda blog . But when I tried to analyze and dig into it, soon I got headache. Don't know why:). But it's great that you influenced S397 to make rF2 better.

    Edit: Did GP3 drivers test the 2018 car with new tires? Did they feel difference in handling? What impressions they had when testing latest build?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  6. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    @avenger82 Do not misunderstand me please!, but I think I have answered, fully, all the questions I could answer; not everything can be shared. Rereading what I wrote you can better understand some of my answers.
     
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  7. txinas

    txinas Registered

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    Thanks for this mod. The feeling is incredible and the sensation driving is very very good. You feel everithing in the wheel and this say how many work are inside the mod.

    Thanks for all.
     
  8. Jeremy Farrow

    Jeremy Farrow Registered

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    I Have to say the more i drive these cars the more I love them & the more i think they are the best in rf2. I let the really ugly in game preview pictures put me off for a while at first & wasn't completely sold on the driving in the older builds. As of the latest update i have nothing but good to say about this mod. Also The i2Pro Workspace is really great of you to include.
     
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  9. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    The difference between showroom view and on track is night and day. Looks so much better on track.
     
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  10. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    Quick update: David "Boxer" have painted all gloves for 2018 and now we are really watching the checkered flag: 1 helmet + visor, few suits and last update to the ART are coming, then I'll start the upload of the new public build. Thank you.
     
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  11. ede78

    ede78 Registered

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    @Slow Motion the GP3 cars are incredible. I don’t know why it took me so long to discover this Mod. Great work! Thank you very much also for you effort in answering some questions in such great detail!
     
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  12. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    Due to today's news we are replacing Palmer, car #23 MP with Devlin DeFrancesco that should race for the rest of the season...
    But no one picture of car/drivers at MP is available, so we'll must wait at least for the next event of the incoming weekend.
     
  13. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    Here latest updated helmets + suits: counting them we are at 10 of 20...
    20180629140012_1.jpg 20180629140010_1.jpg 20180629140008_1.jpg 20180629140006_1.jpg 20180629140004_1.jpg 20180629140002_1.jpg 20180629135959_1.jpg 20180629135957_1.jpg 20180629135955_1.jpg 20180629135953_1.jpg
     
  14. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    Here latest 6 updated helmets + suits: counting them we are at 16 of 20...
    20180629135951_1.jpg 20180629135949_1.jpg 20180629135947_1.jpg 20180629135945_1.jpg 20180629135943_1.jpg 20180629135939_1.jpg
     
  15. Mibrandt

    Mibrandt Registered

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  16. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    Bah... no idea at all... maybe it depends of the point of view, distance, position on track, specific beta devmode settings or some other else... pictures are static. Reflections are working as usual, here one of the cars in the box:

    20180630170457_1.jpg
     
  17. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    MP #23 from now on driven by Devlin DeFrancesco
    20180702145954_1.jpg
     
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  18. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Is it just me, or are the Jenzer cars a bit further up a bit bright?
     
  19. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    You are right. It suddenly appeared running the current beta devmode. It can happen using the beta, because of continuous development at S397 and I already reported it. If something will be changed in that way by S397, I'll desaturate the "blue"... I must say they are so fast in developing and releasing new build to be tested, that I'm very confident I must wait for few hours only.
     
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  20. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    Anyone have a feeling that rain lights are a bit weak on these cars ?
    i tried to search some youtube videos to have a look at rain lights but didn't find anything.
     

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