Driving style difference between RF2 and Iracing?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rapala, Aug 18, 2017.

Tags:
  1. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,050
    Likes Received:
    756
    @Ronnie
    Man thats a long paragraph!
     
  2. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    296
    Sorry
     
    Lazza and David O'Reilly like this.
  3. Gaboni

    Gaboni Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    29
    My case is the opposite, I've always been an rFactor guy, and started in iRacing last year.

    This post won't be very useful to the OP, but I like this debate, as I enjoy a lot these two sims, each one with its own strengths and weaknesses. I have no idea of tyre models or temperatures, so I will talk only of driving feelings behind the wheel.

    For me, iRacing is easy to drive when you are going slow, but as you try to go fast, the car becomes tricky and a little bit unpredictable, and you have to be very precise with the wheel and the pedals, specially with cars like the MP4-30.

    rF2 instead is much natural and easier to drive near the limit. The car is more predictable and it is much easier to correct wheel locks, oversteer, etc. I think a more sensitive FFB and brake feel has a lot to do with that.

    I disagree with both sentences "in iRacing you have to stay away from the limit to be fast" and "in rFactor you have to overdrive the car to be fast".

    If you set a time in iRacing going "slow", and then you try to go faster reaching the limit, but the time is slower... then you are overdriving the car. So, the first lap was really drove at the limit, and not "away from the limit".

    Same for rF2. If you think you are overdriving the car, but the time is faster... then what you are doing is getting close to the limit, but not overdriving the car.

    Each sim has its own feeling and its own driving limit, and it takes some time to change the chip from one to the other. Anyway I've found that cars like iRacing's skippy and rF2's USF2000 have a very similar handling, so it may also depend of the specific car.

    Sorry for the big post. Holidays, you know.. :rolleyes:
     
    Guimengo likes this.
  4. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Messages:
    4,578
    Likes Received:
    1,071
    it's what ever you use the most your brain will tune into

    i find iracing is more about the tyre & tyre contact patch everything bit more sensitive

    rfactor2 tyres bit sluggish in comparison but suspension weight loading bit more involved

    could be user involvement in the ffb as brain is trying to take all messages possible
     
    yusupov likes this.
  5. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    I think this is exactly what others have explained. You need to keep away from the limit where you lose car control and sensitivity. The problem IMO must be related to tire behaviour which is what is getting near the limit and not directly related to FFB. For sure bad tire behaviour will produce bad FFB but as a consequence and not as the main problem
     
    avenger82 likes this.
  6. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    381
    Yes, interesting.
    It's usually in hillclimbs when you can see more extreme set ups and what a car can really do when thrown around.
    Of course in karting you can be even more aggressive because there's a lot of grip for the power and speeds and you can really experiment with the real-world physics.
    So karts work almost exactly like RF2 physics (although nothing like RF2 karts lol).
    There is a case to be made for making cars in sim racing more difficult than in reality to compensate for the freedoms allowed and the lack of danger but there's also a case to be made for simulating reality and the physics of it.
    Nothing feels better to me than taking the brakes of the Megane to the limit and trying to stay right on it.
    Braking in iracing is completely meh, not really any information or feeling on what the tires are doing save for tire noise.
    I'm all in favor of RF2 physics in general though I am a little biased as well towards RF2, reluctant to call myself a fanboy but not far off.
    At the end of the day both sims work in their own way but I find driving RF2 cars a lot more enjoyable without lacking in challenge in most cases.
     
    patchedupdemon likes this.
  7. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,602
    Likes Received:
    1,151
    I thought that rf2 tyres felt abit sluggish at first,but then I realised that's just the progressiveness of the tyre transitioning through the grip states,that's where iracing in most cars feels harder,due to the grip kinder acting like an on off switch due to no progression,the skip barber exhibited some progression and the fastest guys use that to be fast,they really rotate the car on entry to get the laptimes,but the skippy is on an old tyre model iteration.

    Just this week there's a thread in iracing gt3 forum,even the some fanboys are saying the latest tyre model is just flat out wrong,we all asked for the cars to be able to hold a little slide,instead of just swapping ends as soon as the grip was lost,but what the gave us was a mushy under inflated wishy washy experience where you can now to easily drift power slide,everywhere,thisnqlso effected the indersyeer state of grip.

    Instead of adding progression between the grip states,they have gone way to far,and instead of correcting the root cause of the on off grip states,"transversal grip" and longitudinal grip,they just allowed really low pressures to be used,that's why all supplied sets fails tech because the car was now too low.

    It feels like the transversal grip is non existent but actually I think the root cause of that is due to the tyre not having any cross sections to it,so localised grip,wear and heat conditions can't be used,that's why you have to stay away from the limit,you lock a tyre,the whole thing melts instead of the contact patch,this is why it can take a whole lap for the grip to return,as the tyre cools,rather than just a few corners.

    Because no cooler unaffected rubber is touching the road after a lock up,that's why you get those low speed icy tyre spins after a spin,the whole tyre is 250+ degrees so when you accelerate it's like lava.

    A clearly sign of the newer tyre models going in the wrong direction is the lotus 49,the tyre model that's on feels fantastic.
     
    Christos Segkounas likes this.
  8. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    381
    Second time I hear this in a few days, fi5rst one from the guy that runs our league who said he ditched AC exactly for the lack of feel when braking.
    I guess where there's smoke...

    Interesting again because that's exactly how I feel about their newest cars as well, although I'm not sure my reasons and your reasons for saying so are the same.
    As I've already mentioned (yeah, I'm not very popular), Radical and Macca lack feel under braking.
    They also seem to behave and feel in a very similar manner all around.
    I have been driving the 650S and enjoying the challenge of it a lot more of late, it is surely a fun car to throw around, but I'm not happy because of the reasons mentioned.
    Macca is also quite challenging to go fast with and I have to wonder if the feel of the car on the limit and the FFB are the reason for that rather than the actual performance and handling of the car.
    As for braking, both in real life and sim racing I've always been psychotic about having strong brakes.
    I wanted my brakes to lock up with minimum force because if I have to put force into my braking then how can I have a sensitive foot on the limit, that's always been the case with me and that's why I always put my brakes at 100% power whatever I may be driving.
    I just feel the limit and try to stay on it, not always easy but certainly a challenge I want to take on trying to find an advantage over the next guy.
    Rad and 650 are the only cars I have had to betray "everything I stand for".
    I am ashamed to admit I have actually reduced braking assistance in the 650S (we do not use ABS) so I hit the limit because that's only as far as the brakes will take me, not because I control the brakes on the limit.
    Sad story.
    I am pretty sure the rest of the GT3s will be like that as well.
    Hope this trend will not continue, I want to start braking again and not have to tune the car to do it for me.
    I know I have cheap T150 pedals but they work great with everything else, pedals are not the problem?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  9. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,099
    Likes Received:
    287
    If true, then one of the sims is badly wrong I would say....
     
    avenger82 likes this.
  10. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    296
    No, they won't. Macca will be fixed too (at least I hope after it gets fixed it will change it's behavior). Braking is an issue, sure, but check out the telemetry and it will make your eyes go like this O_0 (gonna give you a hint. Look for tire channel). Not gonna say more, just see it for yourself. :D

    As for not using ABS in McLaren, I find it illogical. It's like 599 GTO, when you switch off TC the car is undriveable even on dry tarmac and suicidal on wet. Some cars are developed with certain electronic aids in mind. GT3 cars are one of them. Not using ABS on that car is like riding your bike like it's a kick scooter instead of using pedals on it. ^^

    And I almost forgot to add. Yes T150 pedals are crap. I have stock T300 pedals with conical brake mod. I'm gonna be honest here and say it's a pile of crap. Once you try good load cell brake or hydraulic set of pedals you are almost unable to go back from that. I like my pedals to be quite stiff (yes throttle too), with brake pedal having long throw and progressively hard to press (with even initial touch being firm but not rock solid). What I can tell you... having such pedals not only changes your driving, laptimes, consistency and sheer joy of driving, it changes your setup entirely. At least for me. You can get away with more aggressive setup which ironically is not only faster but easier on tires. Why? Because most of tire damage comes from lock ups and mid corner push that you get when you brake earlier than you could have, release the pedal going into a corner and find yourself carrying too much speed into a corner and burning your tires out. With high end pedals you have more confidence in rolling on your brakes, carrying that pressure all the way into a corner with max precision which results with perfect apex speed and car weight balancing. You not only get faster lap but your tires suffer much less in result.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
    jayarrbee36 likes this.
  11. Gaboni

    Gaboni Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    29
    Hey! These two are my favourite cars in both sims! Didn't know that they are badly wrong... their driving feels very natural to me.

    Thats the good thing about not being engineer and not have idea of tyre models or physics... I can enjoy cars like these two without going crazy because the data doesn't match in the telemetry and things like that. Just drive and have fun! :p
     
    Tackset likes this.
  12. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    381
    That would make a lot of sense if we were discussing TC.
    Or stability control
    But ABS?
    Come on!

    As for the telemetry on the brakes, well, I do not use any telemetry so it will forever remain a mystery to me what you mean.
    I can recall that within a day or two of our Silverstone server going up for practicing for our league race, people were all over it as the 650S had just been released, and I swear I saw at least one 1:57 without any driver aids whatsoever!
     
  13. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,099
    Likes Received:
    287
    Sure! Nothing wrong about that. Have fun!:)
     
    Gaboni likes this.
  14. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    296
    That's the thing. For me there is fun and there is "fun". Fun car is for example (out of recently released cars) USF2000, radical in some ways too, both with their flaws (not saying there is a perfection or every will be one that is flawless. That's impossible) which don't damage fun factor of driving them casually. Some messing around for bunch of laps, preferably with some friends. Lots of smiling, talking shit to each other and that's it. I had my fun.

    Then there is "fun". However this kind of fun requires highest possible quality, physics fidelity and advancement possible. Cars in sims can't be perfect but I adore the ones that get the closest. You don't know me, but those people who do, they know I'm a lunatic, freaking maniac when sth catches my eye and I see technical challenge in it, I can go 2 days without proper sleep of just driving stints with max fuel, checking telemetry and tweaking setup, even months after release when one would think there is nothing else to find in this or that car. I spend 14 h in setup/telemetry marathons. I don't eat, barely drink and therefore getting up to visit man's porcelain throne is a non issue. That's what makes me happy. I remember one night when I got hold on a friend that has racing engineer experience (he is barely ever available so I took the chance when I saw him again after a long time), sat him in his chair, took out my notebook and literally ordered him to flood me with as much information as humanly possible. Started 4 PM... ended around 6:30 AM when he basically begged me to let him go now so he can go to bed.

    I'm not an oval guy but I love stock cars, Indy on ovals just because setup is easily 80 % of one's performance there. The challenge of making a car that I don't feel an expert of excites me. I can spend and have in the past hours upon hours of tweaking every little thing on the car to make the weight distribution into T2 smoother with simultaneous splitter sealing off across whole turn from entry, center and off. Obsession of finding that 1-2 kph more on straights by reducing drag without sacrificing any cornering performance. One click more on rear right tire pressure, checking that one click more front left toe. That sounds horrible, I know, but that's what sim racing is for me, that's what "fun" really means to me. The racing part afterwards is like a cherry on top of a big cake... but answer this question yourself: Would a cherry alone fill you up so you don't feel hungry if you can't get that cake too? I will take a cake without a cherry on top over a cherry without a cake any day if I can't have both that is. If I can... sweet! Literally and figuratively speaking.
     
    avenger82 and Gaboni like this.
  15. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    296
    Nothing abnormal about it. You can also run barefoot without your shoes but it won't be as fast or comfortable as with them on.

    Every aid is designed to make a car faster, some are making a car faster by making it more comfortable, safer, less scary to drive therefore it is just taking some load off a driver to let him focus on driving fast instead of not killing himself. Well designed cars are as well sorted to drive without aids as with them, 599 GTO as an example wasn't, F12 tdf wasn't. These cars needed electronics to keep the car going straight and yes that means ABS too.

    Coming back to GT3s again. When it comes to these cars running them with ABS on is the way they were meant to be driven, they were developed with it in mind. You can still do it without it on but like I said it would be like opting to go for a jog barefooted. You can but it won't be the most pleasurable thing you've ever done in your life. ;)
     
    jayarrbee36 likes this.
  16. Gaboni

    Gaboni Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    29
    Thank you Ronnie, very well explained.

    I've tried a lot of times to learn to make setups: reading a lot of tutorials, watching videos, even I've done some payment courses... and nothing, I am completely useless with that. :(

    I think that's why I like a lot the fixed series in iracing... :D
     
    SPASKIS likes this.
  17. Wand Villela

    Wand Villela Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    The iracing allows setting the brake pressure and stroke.
     

Share This Page