FFB and FWD cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by djfil007, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. djfil007

    djfil007 Registered

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    Since getting my OSW SimuCUBE direct drive wheel, rFactor 2 is the only game that I keep trying wide range of different settings in-game, in the controller.json, and in MMos FFB settings. Just the last few days it's come to me what really throws me off with the FFB in rFactor 2. FFB in FWD cars feel miles different than cars with RWD/4WD... and it's extremely noticeable with an OSW.

    I'm pretty happy with my settings for RWD/4WD cars, such as Open Wheel, Karts, GT cars, etc. But FWD cars in my opinion feel horrible... and it's too bad cause touring cars are some of my favourites. I don't like how the wheel jerks in the opposite direction (or just loses most/all resistance) when the front wheels are with loss of traction. I don't think it seems right, and I'm not sure that would be realistic.

    This is the only game that FFB for FWD cars seems act like this... no concerns with AMS, AC, DiRT, etc. Anyone else have this feeling about FFB with FWD cars in rFactor 2?
     
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  2. daguru

    daguru Registered

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    Yup i got the same with my osw cant drive them feel awful
     
  3. Nitrometh

    Nitrometh Registered

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    I guess its because most of the cars have lsd. That's why the steering wheel acts so violent.
    Cheers
     
  4. rocketjockeyr6

    rocketjockeyr6 Registered

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    Thats pretty much how FWD cars are in real life, especially with LSD.
    I drove a 99 Integra, B18c with LSD and JDM 6spd on an autocross course, the throttle had to be exactly perfect to avoid understeer. Too little or too much and the diff just fights the tyres for traction. Its very on/off.
    This is why FWD make poor racecars IMO.
    Every Touring Car would be miles better if it were simply RWD. :D
     
  5. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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  6. djfil007

    djfil007 Registered

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    Thanks for linking this earlier thread, some helpful discussion there as well. Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I get that FWD drive cars should feel different, but the sudden changes in FFB strength seem over exaggerated (again mostly noticeable now on OSW).

    And I understand the on/off traction of FWD w/ LSD... very valid point. But I still don't think such a huge change in torque should be coming up the steering shaft during these moments of grip gain/loss. Problem is if I turn down the FFB strength in general for these cars, all other feeling is lost as well.
     
  7. rocketjockeyr6

    rocketjockeyr6 Registered

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    Have you guys played with the smoothing and the minimum torque as well?
    I have different values for almost every car I drive. Usually vehicle specific ffb stays at 1, sometimes up to 1.5 if it feels weak, then smoothing comes up and minimum tq comes down.
    Smoothing is usually between 0-5, min tq 2-5%
    BTW, my profiler settings(G27) are 107% overall, 0 everything else, 900 degrees rotation, allow game to change settings.
     
  8. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    Can the LSD be adjusted? If it can and the relative speed to other cars doesn't matter, then that might help.
    Otherwise i would think increasing damping could help, and using damper filter might reduce the loss of feel.
     
  9. ECAR_Tracks

    ECAR_Tracks Registered

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    It's not only your steering wheel or you, FWD force feedback is dreadful in RF2. Worth saying RWD is the best IMO among all simulators, in contrast.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  10. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I don't think that the explanation regarding odd FFB has anything to do with LSD. Other's reported normal behaviour with soft and hard tires with the civic and telemetry figures showed a big difference. Clutch and differential equations are the same in both cases. The difference seems to be exclusively related to the pneumatic trail difference between those tires.

    Apparently the CPM tire model which is being used in the medium tire generates bigger pneumatic trail values compared to the simple tire model used by soft and hard tires.

    It has been a while already since this issue regarding Civic medium tires and FFB with FWD cars has been arised. I fail to understand why the topic hasn't been clarified by S397.

    From what I know the only way to validate that Tire Building and Simulating Tool is providing accurate values for pneumatic trail would be to correlate FFB (steering axis torque). Small variations in pneumatic trail would have small effect on general vehicle behaviour but a big influence in FFB.

    As I also said, the number of variables to build lookup table philosophy seems to be enough to determine the overall tire deformation and normal loads but insufficient IMO in order to reproduce all the sliding conditions and lateral forces that typically occur at the contact patch which determine pneumatic trail. IMO an empyric formula using values from the lookup table would provide best results.

    However, the important part in order to prove if a model is right or wrong is its validation. A simpler model properly validated is to be preferred over a more complex not validated model.

    Has FFB been validated for FWD cars?
    Has pneumatic trail calculation provided by CPM tool been validated in general?
     
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  11. djfil007

    djfil007 Registered

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    I do play with smoothing, and overall filtering (in MMos FFB), but minimum torque on a Direct Drive Wheel is a no go (always at 0). I was driving yesterday with way FFB down at 0.25 (loosing lots of the standard driving FFB)... but when a moment of understeer came, it still tried to rip my arms off.
     
  12. djfil007

    djfil007 Registered

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    I too would like to hear from the studio regarding this.
     
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  13. rocketjockeyr6

    rocketjockeyr6 Registered

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    Damn, thats a shame.
    Never had the pleasure of a direct drive wheel.:oops:
    Too bad one of the only area's my G27 prevails(FWD FFB) is an area I dont particularly care about. :p
    Anyways, I hope you figure something out.
    Cheers,
    rocket
     

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