Are sims too "realistic" to produce life-like driving?

For sure people don't drive at the limit at track days. It's frustrating as hell when you're in a slow ass car and you're destroying super cars in the turns just to have them walk away on the next straight but absolutely refuse to give a point by. You would also see a lot more spins if you had a bunch of ameture drivers on a race track actually pushing the limits.

This is why I was suggesting autox over track days. You see TONS of people spinning at autox events because no one is afraid of spinning on a wide open space.

And I leave you with a video of Bryan Heitkotter (Solo2 National champ, avid simracer and GT Academy winner) doing his thing:

 

Well yeah the driver is the limit in regards to lap times. But the tires have a limit of their own and that is the limit I think we are all referring to. Faster drivers can't increase the potential grip of the tires. They just learn how to utilize their grip better. A bad driver can very easily reach the limits of the tires.... just push the middle pedal as fast and as hard as you can and there you go.

I think what most people are referring to when the say "limit" is limit of the tires. At least that is what I was referring to in my posts.

 

+1

I would still be happy if rF2 was nothing but a Build 60 F3.

How many of you can say that.

If you find "your" car all these thoughts, wishes and problems should melt away into background noise.

 

@Noel, I could see that happening in DE but not in Solo. (DE being the beginning and inter classes.) I had to chime in here because I'm surprised to see that kind of info coming from someone who should know better. Solo drivers know how to toss a car around and some are instructors. In DE, well, the wave-by is on the straights so if you aren't near them then they aint going to slow down for you. If you are that much quicker you shouldn't be in DE. If you experienced that behavior in Solo then you need to run with another group. Or come to the dark side and join up with PCA.

If you are going to toss track days as being full of under the limit drivers (absolutely true in the lowest DE class) you should expand on what class and group you ran with. That isn't a typical experience for a solo driver. If it was none of us would spend our hard earned money doing this hobby. They guy in the brand new GT3 RS doesn't get a solo pass because of his car so I suspect you were running in a DE group and didn't stick with it long enough to get put up higher.

On topic, get some real life track experience Pearce so you can realize it is just like any other sport, practice and learning equals experience. You'll get smoked by old guys in old cars but you'll find them more than willing to help you get faster. Hobby aint cheap though and it won't suffer your ego so be prepared to learn and be humbled.

Only with real experience under your belt will you appreciate what you can and can't get out of a sim. You'll also stop focusing on the software as much (rF2 is one of the best) and want to spend cash on getting hardware that feels like a real car. Without that you can't begin to dice up rF2's limitations beyond the obvious. e.g. Using a G27 strapped to a desk and cheap pedals on the floor is a bigger limitation to providing a simulated experience than anything the software isn't doing right.

 

Are sims too "realistic" to produce life-like driving?

That's partly just because they're not driving. When you're riding in a fast car and not driving its 10x as scary, trust me I know. Something about being in control that calms you down a lot.

 

Any track days I have done have been in DE but at the time I had let my SCCA license expire so they were not willing to let me run in the solo group so all I could do was DE without an instructor. I don't do them often (not even once a year) because I can't afford to do it plus the closest track is 2 hours away. As for SCCA Solo2, you don't just pick what ever class you want. It's based on your car, mods and tires. I've autoxed in a gazillion classes though in my own cars along with codriving other cars. In Solo2 the first 3 races will be run in a novice subclass and those drivers obviously spin more but even national champions spin from time to time. A novice driver can definitely test the limits easier and more comfortably on a wide open parking lot around cones than on a track with the fear of going off track. And $40 is a lot cheaper than $200+.

I stand by my advice of attending an autox. Especially if you live in a highly active state like Florida where you could even run multiple events per month if you are willing to do a little driving.

 

True but most drivers who think they are at the limit of traction on public roads are actually far bellow. That is all I was trying to point out. Once you do some sanctioned events of some sort it's a bit of a reality check that your driving on public roads is far below what you're willing to do off road.

 

Exactly. I saw tons of drivers making their tyres screech often (especially mid corner where anyone can just crank their steering wheel until tyres screech) while being 3-4 seconds off - and that's on a tiny (I think about 1 mile) circuit taking only about 1 minute flat (give for take a few seconds) to lap.

I was one of the fastest, if not the fastest, of 30 or so people at my season at an F2000 school, yet when I hopped in the safety/track-guide car (Chevrolet Cavalier Z24) and the instructor (ex open-wheel driver) ripped it around the track, it was on a whole-nother level still - beaking points, entry speeds, etc.

I couldn't disagree more. A Logitech G25, Fanatec CSR (non-elite), Thrustmaster T500RS, and Fanatec CSW V2 haven't done the slightest ounce relative to eachother to change any sort of opinion or experience (other than immersion and fun-factor) of mine with regards to simracing. None of them made the physics seem to drive differently to one another for better or worse. A higher-end wheel hasn't done anything for me personally with regards to appreciating anything more/less or for realising that seeming vehicle dynamics/behaviour oddities were/are actually a result of hardware rather than software/game.

 

Hearing about guys claiming to be driving 'on the limit' on public roads is indeed just a wee bit disturbing.


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Guys...try Ford Escort RS1800 in Lime Rock....

Still i dont know wut is 'too realistic'

 

Many thanks, Noel!

This was meant in a joking way. I know I can't drive for ****. And I don't have a problem with it.

I think I've found mine in the NSX. Perfectly perfect physics as far as I'm concerned.

 

It's the distance between us and the simulated world - there is lag needed for calculations, rendering and FFB. Even having the most realistic sim possible, we would have to be more focused than real drivers and our reactions would have to be slightly more "engineered" and adapted to simulator.

Just imagine this - you take a real car and make it radio controlled. Now you plug it into a computer with picture, sound and FFB from that car. You can put a professional driver behind the steering wheel and he will find it much more difficult to drive this car than while sitting in it. I wouldn't be surprised if he was spinning or at least overdriving the car and locking wheels all the time.

On the other hand, in simulator we don't have to deal with g-forces, vision shaking, heat and all other kinds of physical stress.


And that's pretty much as simple as I can put it
Both simracing and real racing is difficult at competitive level, but these are two different types of "difficult"