G27 steering lag/feel?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by PearceYaussy, Oct 3, 2015.

  1. PearceYaussy

    PearceYaussy Registered

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    One thing I have constantly noticed about the G27 for the lat few years is the small bit of lag and general lack of feel I get with it. It can be as much as about 1/6 second of lag, enough to cause some problems with driving. I have never EVER felt the same connection with the car that I did with my MOMO a few years back. Sure the shifter, clutch, and rotation is nice, but the feel just isn't good at all, especially when I'm getting the lag.

    With the MOMO the greatest lap I ever did was a 4:53 at Nordschliefe in GTR Evloution, F1 2008 mod. With the G27 I can't even come near that (maybe 4:59-5:00) because I just don't feel connected to the car like i used to. With the MOMO, I could feel every little bump in the road and everything the car did through the FFB, and with the G27 it feels so much more "numb" and I cant feel anything. The only way I know if the car is oversteering is by what I see on the screen.

    This is not just rf2, its also GTR2, GTR Evo, GTL, Assetto Corsa (although I never tried that one with the momo), every sim I own. Has anyone else had this issue with g27, and how can it be helped?

    Are the clubsport wheels much better? If so it might be worth it once I can afford it.
     
  2. vali

    vali Registered

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    I have a G25 (wich is basically the same) and never noticed that in rFactor based games, but I did find that "lag" with AC. The worst offenders were the Shift series (yes, I know, they are not sims) but they get rid of it in pCars, wich is the reason I have more hours in PC than in AC.
     
  3. QUF

    QUF Registered

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    Is it visual delay? Turn off wheel animation and drive that way. Then check for general stuff like vsync in game or gpu software, disable it. Then check your pre-rendered frames in gpu software if you have nvidia, set it to 1. Or in game files, graphics.ini put max frame latency to 1.
    If you notice visual delay that may put you off, is simpler to turn it off and use the car with steering wheel detached, or you can also use the option 'fixed'.

    For G27, turn off damper, spring, and centering spring. Only use 100% or 107% overall forces. In case for 107, you need to turn off min.force% in game.
     
  4. vali

    vali Registered

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    I never pay attention to the virtual wheel. No vsyn, 1 pre-rendered frames and never use dampening or spring in the profiler. For some reason I feel something is "odd" and even get a bit of motion sickness (a mild one, after half an hour or so). It is in the way the car moves, not the wheel. There were several patches since last time I tried it, though. Maybe it is different now.

    I am VERY sensitive on motion sickness IRL and that is the reason I am waiting for the Oculus Rift with the fingers crossed since they are the ones who are putting more effort in minimal lag.
     
  5. PearceYaussy

    PearceYaussy Registered

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    Thanks for the reply, I will try that.
     
  6. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    PearceYaussy, would you mind trying the same steering lock to lock of 270 degrees of the MOMO on your g27 please (through the logitech profiler).

    Reducing the lock could/should technically reduce the perceived steering lag/feel you speak of. I would be very interested in your findings.
     
  7. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    I often was going to bring up about great F3 driver Pearce knows Frans.

    Probably the most consistent lapper in the Eve at about 10/12 circuits I have ever seen.

    He went I think from G27 / CSW /CSW2 and lastly AF that was a few months ago, I dunno, he has always popped in after each upgrade for a session and a hello.
    Somewhere along the way he lost feel for what he said was the best car in rF2.

    I don't know, why was it the wheels, was it the builds, whatever it was the biggest turn around I ever seen from a individual.

    His main thought when he abandoned it was somehow it had become "disconnected, lack of feedback...." .

    So I dunno.......

    P.S.
    But I do know all the way through G27 and most of CSWv1 he simply loved it , we would do 4 hours straight full on hotlapping every day and drove like he was possessed.

    I can't wrap my head around how this changed so much with my little Evie, makes me want to Cry. p hehehe :(
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2015
  8. whitmore

    whitmore Registered

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    I have noticed that with the last couple of builds CPU utilisation is very high when G27 in operation ( 50%) but when car is under AI control CPU drops to almost nothing. Wheel lag and stuttering starts as CPU utilisation grows.
     
  9. PearceYaussy

    PearceYaussy Registered

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    I will try that DrR1pper. Don't know how much it would help though. I drive the howstons at 270 because the in game heel for those cars won't turn any more than that for some reason, and I still seem to suffer from the lack of feel, but I'll try it with other cars. I remomber though the day I got my g27 I was immediately dissapointed with the FFB and feel compared to the MOMO. Hell, maybe I'll get another MOMO and try it just for the hell of it, see if it's really the wheel or if my driving has gotten worse lol. I can get one on amazon for $80.

    Yes, I agree that the F3 cars have gotten worse over the last several builds. I used to run a 4:15 easily at Belgium, and now I can barely run a 16. I would be interested to see what they feel like with the contact patch model implemented though. Might be a big improvement. It was annoying though how back when I was at my prime on the historic servers every time they released a new build the physics would change (get worse IMO). ISI claims they rarely change the physics in core updates, btu that is surely BS. I can tell when my cars feel different dammit. And no, Tim. It's not a "Placebo" lol. When I update my build and am all the sudden lapping a second slower, it's no "placebo". As was said in the "senna" documentary, Senna could "do a dance" with the car and push it past it's possible limits somehow and go incredibly fast. I was like that with the historics once upon a time, even with this "lack of feel" I complain about with the g27. Some people either had better setups or were obviously cheating with grip (won't say any names) and could keep up, but the way I drove was unmatched. But I find it harder and harder with every build to connect with the car and do that "dance". It's very annoying.
     
  10. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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  11. PearceYaussy

    PearceYaussy Registered

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    Doubt that'll help, but I'll try. I think I'm just losing my touch. I'm losing the one thing I've ever been good at. It really sucks. But hey, living in America where I have a choice between ingesting toxic flouride or dying of thirst, It really doesn't surprise me one bit. And no, that's not a ****ing "conspiracy theory", the US government admits to putting flouride in the water supply for "dental health", even though it's PROVEN to be toxic and to cause cancer, kill brain cells, screw up your thyroid (leading to obesity), and have numoruos other negative health effects. That's why they ended the practice in europe decades ago. So if I'm losing my reflexes and skills it's because I have 80% of the brain cells I used to. And y'all wonder why us good ol' 'Mericans are so damn fat and stupid. God Bless America!!!

    And no, drinking bottled water won't make a difference. It's in there too.

    Oh wait. This is the rF2 forum isn't it? I forgot where I was.
     
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  12. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Way off topic ofc but seeing as it is your thread and you started it...

    Much more likely caused by hyperinsulinemia which in turn is caused by way way way excessive carbohydrate consumption. Insulin's purpose is to shuttle nutrients into both muscle and fat tissue. However muscle tissue has a limit of capacity whereas fat tissue does not. If you fill your curently available fat stores, the body will just happily make new ones. Unfortunately ofc the same is not true of muscle tissue, you have to burn what is already stored in the muscle first which is easier said that done (and more on that later).

    The other key point is fat tissue will not accumulate new fat and grow without insulin. So naturally the logically, lower the insulin and you can drop the weight. This is why type 2 diabetics who move onto insulin will suddenly gain a tremedous amount of weight shortly after moving to insulin injections despite eating the same amount of calories as before. It's not the amount of calories that cause weight gain....it's the insulin. For endocrinologists, this is no mystery as insulin is known as the fat storage hormone.

    What causes the hyperinsulinemia? Insulin resistance which can have a number of slightly different causes but all leading to the same result -> hyperinsulinemia. For example, if liver and muscle tissue glycogen storage is already saturated (from eating too much starchy carbs every day and not burning them off) then any additional glucose consumed spills over back into the blood causing hyperglycemia which the body responds to by pumping out even more insulin and for a long time in an attempt to force it out of the blood and back into the tissue. Ofc it's rather futile if the muscle tissue is already saturated so it just stays in the blood until the muscle tissue has made room and/or is shuttled into fat tissue where it is converted to fat. Worse yet, to efficiently burn off glycogen stored in the skeletal muscle you must exercise and rather vigourously....anerobically being most effective. Walking isn't really enough....the rate of energy required for walking can easily be saisfied by buring only fat which the body will preferentially do in order to preserve glycogen stores (which is the storage form of glucose in the body) for anerobic exertion (think sprinting for your life) since aneobbic ATP production is only possible with glucose. Another cause is from having a fatty liver which is basically a sick liver (think foie gras which is achieved by doing what? Feeding or force feeding if you want extra fatty foie gras, basically a 100% starch diet). Fructose (i.e. the part that makes sugar taste sweet) can only be metabolised by the liver and is done so by converting it straight into liver fat. When the liver takes on glucose (if there is space for it), it converts most of it into glyocogen (the human version of starch) but around 20% is also converted into liver fat promoting the same problem as fructose. And when the liver is saturated with glyogen and cannot take on any more but if there is more glucose knocking on the livers door, then hyperinsulinemia follows which in turn triggers the liver to convert it's stores of glyocgen into liver fat in an attempt to make more room for glucode to enter (since fat requires less than half the space required to store the same amount of energy/calories in the form of glycogen.)

    Anyway...sorry i went ott off topic. Just something i'm very interested and passionate about.

    Oh and the part i love most....type 2 diabetes is not a chronic progressive disease....it is completely reversible. We're talking even extreme diabetics going from over 200 units of insulin a day down to zero units....nada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcLoaVNQ3rc

    And to add fuel to the fire, in the video you'll see how the medication treatements for diabetics to try and normalise their blood sugars actually makes their diabetes worse in the long run. It's actually pretty simply and obvious, as Dr Jung explains...diabetes is actually not a disease to too much blood sugar but a disease of insulin resistance. The high blood sugar is in fact a symptom of too much insulin (which is synonomous with insulin resistance). Treating the high blood sugar to treat the diabetes diesease is like treating the symtpom of a fever with tylenol when in fact it is caused by an infection. If you treat the fever (i.e the symptom) you won't fix the disease but if you fix the infectious disease with antiobics, the disease goes away as does the symptom (e.g. the fever). High blood sugar is no different...it's just like the fever in this analogy. You cannot hope to fix the disease by treating the symptom. Treating the symptom(s) of the disease to cure the disease is illogical.
     
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  13. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    Is this doing something bad to the brain?

    Edit: yhanks for the video btw. Very interesting.
     
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  14. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

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    I had similar issues in the past with my G27, but i solved this with the Steering torque minimum, wich could be set into the controller.ini or Ingame (ini: 0.145/Ingame:14.5%). The value 14.5% (0.145) was determind by wheelcheck.exe (could be found in the forum). The most increase of performance for me was, to set the center spring in the logitech profiler to 0.
     
  15. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    There is play in G27 ffb mechanism. I was quite dissapointed to g27 ffb after using my slighlty modded dfgt. The play can cause delay and loosing details from ffb.

    I wish i had a picture about this, but the helical gears that are used in g27 mechanism causes motor's saft to move outwards and inwards when force comes from the motors. This movement needs to happen before ffb transmits to your hands, so small things may never get through.

    Also framerate might have effect to your driving. Lower framerate, picture is delayed, you have less time to react.
    Maybe there is problem with your computer.
     
  16. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Is what bad for the brain? Hyperinsulinemia? Going low carb and/or intermittent fasting as a treatment for type 2 diabetes? Not entirely sure what your asking that in relation to.

    No probs, it is interesting because it runs contrary to almost every single diabetes associations claims and advice...that is that type 2 diabetes is an incurable disease that also only gets worse with time and that you must also eat carbohydrates and also quite a lot of them. The latter being one of the most prevelant false truth of them all....that you need for carbohydrates in your diet not only for good health but to survive even. When in fact not only are they unessesary for optimal health but they are not required at all to live (the body can make all the glucose it needs by the liver from the glycerol backbone that makes up triglycerides, i.e. fats, and also from protein). There are only 2 essential macronutrients (fat and protein) for humans (and also for most of the animal kingdom including most herbivores as i'll explain at the end) and 1 totally non-essential macronutrient (carbohydrates). Essential nutrients are those that the body must receive from their diet in order to not only be capable of optimal health but also to survive in the long run. Ofc however you shouldn't just eat any old fat and protein without also focusing on the types and getting in micronutrients as well (which do not have to come from plant matter btw for humans).

    But just one last thing, some food for thought if you will. I'm sure you would agree that cows living on their natural diet of grass woud form by all definitions a very high (e.g. over 95%) carbohydrate diet and that is true. However, the carbohydrate content of grass is made of almost entirely fibre and whilst fibre is correctly classed as a carbohydrate, after consumption it is in fact absorbed through the GI tract as short and medium chain fatty acids. Yes....the amount of fibre hat gets absorbed is first turned (via fermentation in the gut) into fat! How/Why? The only way to turn fibre into usable caloric macronutrition is for the gut bacteria to convert it into fatty acids. So whilst a naturally grass fed cows diet is one of extremely high carbohydrate, by the time it hits their blood it becomes one of almost entirely fat. Funny 'ey.

    The same cannot be said for non naturally pasture raised animals that consume large quantities of starch rich carbohydrate diets (e.g. as is the case for factory farmed animals) who also tend to require antibiotics to keep them alive long enough to reach full growth size for slaughter, etc, i think you can maybe join the dots.

    I'll stop there though because i keep going on and detracting from the thread too much already. pm me if you want to discuss further.
     
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  17. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    I though first that the reason for you to start talking about this subject was that something related to this hyperinsulinemia could cause PearceYaussy to have problem with driving. Apparently that wasn't the case. Although i have heard that there is optimum blood sugar level for brains to work in, so in that way this still could be related to driving. maybe.
     
  18. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    lol. If you read his post right before my tagent ramblings, i think you'll see how/why it got me started.
     
  19. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    You sure you had a good go of the F3 Eve it is the only car I am talking, I do 1000s of laps in it every build

    Yeah Paul, personally I have a suspicion it was the build changes.

    Don't ask me what build it was but even I remember the day the F3 got slower just like Pearce recalls.

    We both had opposite views, I kind of liked it was harder but Frans thought it changed the character of the car for no good reason.

    It is more of a challenge to keep Eve balanced these days for sure whether that means if feels better I am not sure.



    P.S. just out of interest Paul........

    Can you get the AF to replicate F3 force, steering would be very light and neutral compared to most anything I can think of.

    Jim Clark, look how delicate and smoothly he could point it and that is a V8.

     
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  20. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Thanks Paul , first paragraph makes me sadder for a good wheel. hehehe

    You do know when I say I will beat X with broken Momo I am only kidding about. hehehe

    I admire and respect the length you guys go to understanding and experimenting and getting for you what is the best feel.

    For me it comes down to one thing matters, whether I have a rattly Momo , good GT2 or lovely AF................................................................I still wouldn't be driving AC or pCars. ;)

    lol bite bite p
     

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