Sim Racing servo ffb systems : OSW & Bodnar

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Adrianstealth, Jun 1, 2015.

  1. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    I also had it with Gamestockcar and i get it with mmos desktop effect damper. In rF2 it maybe wasn't same kind of constant sand grinding feeling, but occasional artificial feeling vibrations. And i get it more with some cars than others. ISI race corvette was more bad than panoz, that i remember.

    If you want, you can't try changing that rf2's update rate/Skip updates setting from 0 to 2 and see if you get any benefit from that. Setting is in controller.json file.

    you seem to have some effect filters on. I have them all at 0. I will test those. i thought that they have effect only to mmos's desktop and user effects and haven't seriously tested them in game.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2015
  2. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    okay, i'm not even sure that is there anything wrong with the ffb. The problem might be my rig that resonates and makes noises with high frequency ffb and i just imagined that there is something wrong with the forces coming to my hands also.

    Going to test rubber mounting the motor this evening.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2015
  3. Jokeri

    Jokeri Registered

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    Can you post pictures of your rig please?

    Talk about resonance, my wheel is bolted to ikea table. The neighbors 2 doors from ours wonders what the hell is that rattling noise, next door neighborg thinks we have a bear in our flat :)
     
  4. Katsushika Matsumoto

    Katsushika Matsumoto Registered

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    Just tried, no immediate noticeable difference in my quick test by setting the skip update setting to 2.
    Used the ISI race corvette, 900 degrees rotation, 100% MMos without any filters. FFB multi 1.0x, 0% min. force

    Do get some of the grinding sound, we talked about.
    Ill try some more cars this weekend.

    I have trouble lifting my arms because I just did a killer workout.
    That and 20NM OSW don't go together that well :D

    Did you hear from Dennis already?
     
  5. Katsushika Matsumoto

    Katsushika Matsumoto Registered

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    Could also be something indeed, one of my mounting bracket screws wasn't tightly fitted, and that made a whole lot of noise.
    My wheel is now pretty quiet, expect when I go over curbs. Then all hell brakes loose. :D
     
  6. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    :D My rig sounds more like a baby bear.

    Well, this is more like a wheel stand than a rig. And sorry for poor image quality.

    View attachment 17324

    That long profile on the ground goes under chair's legs.

    Dennis answered and there doesn't seem to be any magical settings to remove the grinding other than those that i already tested (TBW, CIS, filtering and rF2 update rate setting) I also tested changing those non UI granity settings, but i didn't notice much difference.

    I read some more virtualracing forum and it started to sound like the grinding happens because mige's resolution isn't good enough for high frequencies. And that was just what i was afraid of. Lenze guys didn't seem to have grinding problems.

    I did some testing and my wheel stand did amplify the grinding noise. The noise was quite a bit quieter when i hold the motor in my hand.
    I rubber mounted the motor. It helped with the noise, but it's still not quite as quiet as when not touching the stand at all.

    At the moment i think that grinding thing is not only a noise problem, but also a ffb quality problem so i try to avoid it.
    I am now perfectly happy with these settings:
    TBW: 220, rF2 update rate 133 hz = skip updates: 2, mmos overall filter 10. rf2's filtering at 0. No damping from mmos, just rf2's own damping (resistance coefficient":0.3, and resistance saturation":0.3,)
    There is no grinding or other noises and ffb feels smooth and realistic imo.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2015
  7. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    my pal has just ordered an OSW kit, I'm looking forward to him receiving it
    ( it will no doubt be me that ends up putting it together !)

    be nice to compare & use another high end system !
     
  8. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    CRACKED just ordered x2 OSW kits myself ( one for me to try & one for another sim racing pal )

    all of us there are x4 future OSW owners to be ( hope I don't have to build all 4 ) , 2 should arrive sept so will be a nice project
     
  9. Squeeekmo

    Squeeekmo Registered

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    Is there a place that consolidates all the parts or do you have to go shopping for all the bits individually?
     
  10. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Ollie's the man :

    Info@sim-pli.city

    Kits consist of all parts needed
    you supply your own enclosure (mini atx case fine) & power lead suitable to your country )
    A few options on servo motor - we each have gone for the 30Nm Mige
    Ollie is in the uk, custom circuit board using Ioni , great cost overall
     
  11. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Are you concerned with the 30 Nm MiGe's mid to low 2s (forgot the units) rotational inertia? The 20 Nm MiGe is in the mid to high 1s and can also be safely amped to 30 Nm (I think all you need is additional heatsink and fan or something). That'll give you the 30 Nm and lower rotational inertia.

    Apparently the lower rotational inertia is not just about responsiveness and acceleration/deceleration - which aren't really a concern because I bet any of the motors would easily be good enough in those areas - but about FFB clarity/detail/"quality". That's what concerns me most and the main reason why I still - after months - haven't bought one yet (I'm OCD when it comes to this stuff and detailed info is hard to come - everyone just says they're all awesome regardless of wether it's a 20 or 30 Nm MiGe, a 30 Nm Lenze, or a KilMorgan model).

    I'm not trying to put down your excitement or decision of buying one, I'm just trying to get as much info as I can as I'm still on the fence trying to decide just how much better an overamped-to-30Nm 20 Nm MiGe is over the "stock" 30 Nm MiGe. It's probably the main thing holding me back from a purchase.

    Thoughts, info, etc. by anyone would be truly appreciated. Thanks
     
  12. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    spinelli

    hiya, no not concerned at all : zero concern , I use a bodnar which I'm really happy with so I'm all sorted in the ffb dept so there is no excitement ,
    this is just a side project -the cost is so good it's a no brainer,
    I'll use it for a few weeks & even 100% of time if I actually prefer it who knows



    re.interia I'm actually looking forward to trying something with more interia for sim racing not that I think I'll notice much difference
    +also response times etc on this grade of gear ( true full servo systems such as this ) are a total overkill for sim racing application
    ( thus I don't get involved or even want to remember the actual specification figures after a very quick glance as to me it's a complete wast of time..would be different if I was building one for another application that wasn't sim racing of course )


    the beauty of these high grade servo systems is they deliver everything the sim transmits,
    they are totally robust & should never break or quality degrade
    they are capable of much higher demands than that demanded by sim racing use
    they are totally future proof
    for sim-racing pretty much any spec is a mind blowing overkill sim-racing dosnt fully utilise these type of systems ( even if the response times etc were twice as slow as quotes spec)
    ( providing its this type of high grade industrial full system )

    just ignore all the nonsense and blubbering on the forums most of which is totally laughable

    I'll post pics when the kit shows up etc if any one interested
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2015
  13. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

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    very interested :)
     
  14. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    I did small calculation. Small mige motor inertia= 19.4 kg cm^2, Big mige motor inertia = 27.7 kg cm^2. Difference = 8,3 kg cm^2

    Inertia of my steering wheel = mr^2 = 1 kg x (15 cm)^2 = 225 kg cm^2

    I'm not sure did i something wrong there, but that calculation makes small/big mige motor inertia difference seem very insignificant.
     
  15. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    But I thought the motor intertia was what makes the Lenze so good and expensive? The fact that it only has 7.3 kg.cm^2 (VS 19.4 small MiGe and 27.7 big MiGe)???

    Thanks. I'm getting to the point where I'm just gonna say screw it any buy the bigger MiGe but if I get this then I probably won't buy another wheel for a long time (if ever, lol). If that's the case then I'll always be wondering just what I'm missing by going with 27.7 kg.cm^2 instead of 19.4.

    Bodnar offers different motors as options, do you therefore know the rotational inertia of the exact motor model in your Bodnar wheel? I'm super curious to see what you think of the difference between the two (Bodnar and MiGe) especially if the wheels are set to equal torque levels. The difference, or lack of, may just be the final bit of info I need in order to finally make a purchase.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2015
  16. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    spinelli

    dont get caught into this inertia stuff, higher inertia may even be better ( any lower response times still a massive overkill )
    for sim racing the more expensive or even more powerful isn't necessary better either ,
    the differences some are claiming seem to sway towards the more expensive servos are better but I suspect this is a type of placebo, the whole system is a controlled.

    I've only gone for the 30Nm Mige as specs are very different to my bodnar so hopefully it will feel dissimilar for a bit of variety lol,
    (my pals simply followed suit) & I'm interested in ascertaining "hands on" if more Nm is any advantage
    ( which I doubt it is above a certain point )

    my views may change when I've spent a few weeks using the 30Nm, may do a vid with my prior opinions then revisit those claims after my "hands on" few weeks ( I'm fairly confident my views are not to far off the mark but really happy to be wrong etc I don't get caught up in the google talk on the forums )

    sent you a PM

    p.s high cost systems are superior as they use higher grade alloys & much finer precision in manufacture, will survive much better if there is critical robot bash/jam/sudden stop
    will use less error correction from the drive controllers etc but for sim-racing I'm doubting there's much advantage
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2015
  17. mark7

    mark7 Registered

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    The problem I now find with these new DD systems is not just deciding what to buy but also getting hold of one!

    Simxperience are at September/October for the Accuforce.
    OSW kit batch 1 from Ollie is now delayed for 4 weeks.
    Leo's Simsteering still in new hardware/software testing!

    It's just not easy to spend money on high end kit these days!;)
     
  18. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    the AF isn't a high grade servo system
    ( or even a complete servo system at all in an industrial sense)

    it isn't on the same level as EC, sensodrive, bodnar , OSW & will never perform like one
    ( it is direct drive though which is nice -so a better option than t500 & CSW )
    but then I'm repeating myself again

    incredible due to marketing I think people still put it in the same category
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2015
  19. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    Encoder Resolution could make a difference too.
    Like i said before with small mige i end up using lower ffb update rate, because it felt like it couldn't produce high ferquency ffb with good quality (grinding feel).
    I thought that could be caused by low encoder resolution, but in the other hand i know nothing about servo systems.

    Lenze's resolution: 16384
    Mige's resolution: 10000

    With iracing's 60 hz update rate this is not a problem, but with rF2's 400 hz rate it's different story.
     
  20. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Hoya Korva

    have you had a fiddle in the Json file ?? ( I know you tried different update rates )
    the grind feel could be isi's "road noise" effect ( not sure if canned or not) which can become to apparent when certain other attributes are reduced to much, for my bodnar a completely resetting of a lot of the ffb parameters are needed in the Json file ( update rate is not reduced )
    which gives phonimal results ( actually the servo just locks on any of the pre-set profiles in menu like CSW t500 etc )

    +also did you build the OSW yourself ? kit ?
    I hope your enjoying it
     

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