Dallara DW12 Indy car v1.63 (newly updated) Now Available

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by 88mphTim, May 26, 2015.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Hmmm, from everything I heard (ISI and some other guys around here who are pretty knowledgable) the STC (steering torque capability) setting isn't supposed to have any affect - regardless of the number - unless it's higher than the particular car's preset "nominal torque max" setting. So Now I'm confused...Are you sure it wasn't placebo??
     
  2. dersirromet

    dersirromet Registered

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    Can also be a placebo as I modified a few other settings too, what I can tell you is, that changing all the settings that you guys told me to, helped: camber(I think it was), STS, FFB-car-setting. Now the cars are perfect to drive, love it! Now it's not about holding the car in the track, but about finding a style that saves tires! Its stronger FFB than any other game has now, that's how its supposed to be! Thanks guys!
     
  3. msportdan

    msportdan Banned

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    I tried the numerous ini value changes like sts etc. But for me the caster change is the most effective. It felt better
     
  4. dersirromet

    dersirromet Registered

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    It definitely was the most important change for me too, but the refinement was only possible with the other options, now I'm binge-driving, well, actually the old ISI-F1 car, but also the Indycar.
     
  5. whiplash

    whiplash Registered

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    After maybe 100 laps in Sao Paolo this afternoon, i am very happy with caster back down to 7 degrees, and FFB multi 1.2. I guess it's just a case of getting used to the car. I don't use any STM or STS, and the feeling of the car feels absolutly spot on (not that i have real experience...).

    One thing i am still working on my setup is front end grip, especially on turn-in. Is this thing really set up this understeering/safe? I already changed a few things (front little softer, rear little harder, less rear wing, less rear toe), but especially turn 4 it just will not grip the way i want it to. But i love this car, and i will find a better setup! :D
     
  6. Yoeri Gijsen

    Yoeri Gijsen Registered

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    If it's really only front grip on turn in that concerns you I would suggest working on the front ARB (lower), front toe-in (more negative) or front wing (more degrees)
     
  7. Yoeri Gijsen

    Yoeri Gijsen Registered

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    The issue persists in the 1.63 build. Still no data on ride height.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2015
  8. Justy

    Justy Registered

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    Someone from ISI has confirmed this issue will be fixed for the DW12 and the Formula Renault 3.5, in the next build. :)
     
  9. Z06Trackman

    Z06Trackman Registered

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    View attachment 17247

    I finally loaded and learned the Dallara on Silverstone (the red line is the F1, black is the F3.5 2014, and green is the DW12). I picked this track because I have a lot of laps with the F1 Marussia and the F3.5 on it. The attached Motec plot clearly shows by how much ISS has decided to reduce the steering forces for this car. I zoomed in on turn 2 since this is 170 mph turn, taken flat with no use of curbs. It is clear to see that the F1 car is generating an average of around 40 Nm, the F3.5 13 Nm, and the DW12 7 Nm. ISI say they don't model power steering, but in effect they have by deciding to set the "nominal steering torque" value so low for this car. While I prefer that the cars are accurately simulated in all respects, this is a huge blessing for those who don't have high powered wheels as they can keep the FFB low enough to avoid software clipping and yet still have enough wheel torque to avoid hardware clipping while having a decent average steering force.

    I like to use very conservative FBB settings so that only flashes of red show on Techaide's clipping meter even when hammering curbs (being this conservative on winged cars is only practical when a high powered wheel is used). For Silverstone, that is 0.83, 0.86 and 0.90 for the F1, F3.5 and DW12 respectively ( I think these values can vary depending on how all the other variables in the Controller JASON file are set ???). As shown by the Motec data, the wheel forces feel puny on the DW12 as compared to the other winged cars. I still like it. As has been posted numerous time, the steering wheels forces can be increased with caster, which has a huge effect on steering effort. Of course this also changes the front end geometry, so the handling will be impacted, but perhaps that is not negatively affecting this car.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2015
  10. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    Fixed effectively. Cheers.
     
  11. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    Yes, major error in judgement with the DW-12, since it has no power steering in real life and is well-known to have heavier-effort steering than an F1 or F3.5 (or pretty much any other race car in existence).

    Hopefully this will be corrected in the next update when settings that are designed for fidelity on high-speed ovals are restricted to the oval configuration and we get a normal profile for road racing where the situation of maximum speed cornering is encountered for an average of less than 1% of the time. We need the cars to be simulated properly. All who prefer lighter steering effort can feel free to turn down the FFB multiplier and solve their issue. Those who want proper/proportional weighting cannot do the opposite without inducing clipping.
     
  12. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    The DW12 nominal steering torque is actually set too high for the road course configuration, which leads to typical forces being a lower percentage of maximum and therefore a lower percentage of full FFB output.

    However... and I could be wrong, but I don't think the nominal max torque has any effect on what the telemetry says about the steering column torque. If that's true (and again, that's a big 'if' and I'm happy to be proven wrong) then the DW12 seems to be generating very low forces in that scenario - without even considering any of the various parameters that then shape what happens to the FFB representing those forces.
     
  13. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    Now that with new build it reports ride height, I tried again the car.
    I was very interested in checking if camber values affected the distribution of tyre temps.
    It is the case, lowering camber brought higher outer temp while cornering.
    Still not sure you can reach a perfect distribution of heat when cornering, but a lot closer than before (may be real cars can't either).

    Can someone confirm my findings?

    Cheers.
     
  14. Yoeri Gijsen

    Yoeri Gijsen Registered

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    Dito, Thanks ISI!
     
  15. TJones

    TJones Registered

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    Yes it's a bit better, but still lack's on flexibillity in latheral/longitula direction, as well as the influence of pressure changes.
    For example: Indycar at Silverstone, meassured right behind Start/Finish, with camber of 2°deg. (which is min.), a cold pressure of 152kPa i've got: Front left, (O,M,I) 73,87,92. Front right, (I,M,O) 71,64,52. So a diff. between inner to outer of 19°C which is still a bit to much, (about 10°C difference is good IMO). With default camber of 3.5°deg. i had a diff. of 27°C!
    With Camber of 2°deg. and Pressure of 110kPa (still front axle) i've got: left, (O,M.I) 56,76,68. right, (I,M,O) 59,58,43. So tyres looks pretty much overinflated still.

    But, what we dont know is, how stiff (construction wise) the tyres are, and where are exactly the inner and outer messurement points. It's thinkable, they are to close to the border radius or even in the border radius, in this case the temp readings are pretty much distorted. Ok, not very likely, but possible.:)

    To my disappointment, there is no further improvement of the tyre-physic in the latest build. I hope they don't abandoned tyre development for a longer period.

    The tyres ISI, stick with the tyres, please i beg you !! :D
     
  16. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    May be more things are going that we are able to see, or at least, has been commented here at the moment.

    If as it seems you are interested in car physics, add to your Motec (if it is not already done) an Outing Graph (that is the name in Motec) showing the evolution of tire pressure through the laps, it is an eye opener (it was in my case).

    In real cars you have an over pressure under load if initially under inflated (due to carcass flex) that can reach to catastrophic failure.

    May be some are interpreting excess center temp as an over inflated tire, when it is the contrary, it is an under inflated tire that arrives to an excess pressure through load and it's consequent deformation.

    Cheers.
     
  17. TJones

    TJones Registered

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    Hi Lgel, you're correct my main interest is indeed car physics, good hint about Motec i'm going to try that, thanks.
    While i cant really disprove your argumentation about increasing dynamic pressure under load, i find it quite hard to agree. Of course you have temperature effects than, but i have my doubt they're able to compensate the whole differece of pressure.
    I'm not a tyre expert, so i'm potentially wrong of course!

    I've got also a interesting hint, if you dont know already.
    Try to activate your "TGM-Display", you can find it in "player.json" file in section "driving aids".
    It shows the tyre contact-patch and temperature in realtime. Interesting to see the difference of the old tyremodel and new one.
    While the old one, shows is a very large rectangular (bit rounded) patch, which chage the size only. The new one is very different, even when you stand still.
    The patch changes size and form while driving, very interesting!
     
  18. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    @TJones
    Thanks for your hint, I knew of the contact patch display.

    I am not a tire engineer.

    What I am saying is that as you know tire pressure Pi (i for instant) is base pressure Pb + Ph cumulative increment of pressure due to heat generated during driving.
    Resuming Pi = Pb + Ph.

    First eye opener for me was that even if I thought that after 5 laps tire temps were stabilized, Pi was still raising through 10 laps, I didn't have time to test on a longer stint. So if tires are not to burst they must reach a limit Pl (at least they do in real life).

    I thought a little more about the facts I have seen (tire pressures take at least 10 laps to stabilize), even if tire temps look stabilized after five laps. The heat from the tire must be exchanged between the tire (carcass and thread) and the air inside (Nitrogen for a racing tire), air is an excellent isolation (Nitrogen chosen to be even better), so it is to be expected that the gas inside the tire will heat at a much slower pace than the tire itself.

    So they are many question to answer:

    - in how many laps do you reach Pl depending on base pressure Pb?
    - does Pl vary depending on Pb?
    - should we wait to have reached Pl to observe tire temps and adjust suspension geometry as it seems logical?

    In real life, an under inflated tire runs hotter that a correctly inflated tire, and logically at a higher pressure (and consequently with a different geometry when subjected to loads).
    Even if competition tires are inflated with nitrogen which reduces the effects of heat build up compared to air inflated tires.

    I hope that you guys will contribute with your tests.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2015
  19. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    Interesting...

    Where does the "TGM-Display" appear on screen? And do you have to set the temporary variable, or just change to "true?"
     
  20. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

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    on the top left, just true (on) or false (off)
     

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