So difficult to join servers, no info where to download cars/tracks, ridiculous

It uses WAY more than 10kbps per client. A race car really can't be compared to a FPS. You have lots of data that has to be fed to the client so it can determine where it is and were it is headed. Also, the bandwidth isn't linier. Say the data for one client is 10kbps/Sec (this isn't the actual number, it just makes easy math). So when one client is on the server the client sends 10Kbps/Sec to the server and the server hardly sends anything back. Now a second driver joins. This client sends 10Kb/Sec to the server along with your 10Kb/Sec and now your 10Kb/Sec is also being sent from the server over to the other clients along with his being sent to you. So now the server is sending out at 20Kb/Sec. Now a third joins. They send their 10Kb/Sec to the server but now the server is having to send out updates for two cars (because you already know your own pos) to three drivers. So now the server upstream goes from 20Kb for 2 drivers to 60Kb for 3 drivers. Now make that 4 drivers and if goes up even more dramatically. This is a very simplified explanation. The server actually does a lot of throttling. For example, the server slows down the sample rate once one driver is really far away from another driver. But regardless it uses a lot more bandwidth than most people realise. The server actually tells you how much data is being used. The percentage displayed in the dedi is based on what you told it your max up and down stream is. The GUI only lets you go as high as 8Mbps/8Mbps. You can set it higher in the mp.ini though. But if you really want to know how much data the server is using, keep an eye on those percentages and then do the math.

If ISI gives people the ability to configure the bandwidth on the HTTP server they will end up setting it way too high and drivers will end up warping all over the track. Right now the QoS is probably a little on the conservative side. Look how long skin xfers take or how long even a 80KB vmod takes to download. Just think about downloading 700MB worth of rfcmp's at that pace. Sticking the components on a Dropbox account isn't really that hard and it gives you very fast downloads.

 

2) Totally agree with this 10000%!!
3) This is how it works now with GetMod. The sig is what defines a mod. The sig is a hash of the component name, version and MAS files. If any of these change then the sig changes and makes the component incompatable and adds it the the download queue.
4) vmods will probably never go away. It will just become transparent. Clearly there has to be some definition of what content it on the server.

 

If that is actually correct... wow ... that is ridiculous. I'll have to fire my server up again (on internal windows machine) and run jnettop (on my gateway) to watch what bandwidth is being used by whom. I suspect your exaggerating or something, however, as 60Kilobyte/s (I was talking kbyte not kbit) for 3 drivers is not sustainable. What happens when its 43 drivers on an oval? They could very well be running around the oval in huge packs. If you are talking kbit - then 60/8 = 7.5kbyte/s for three drivers which is not out of line with other games of the current era.

 

The server would only send things to the client if it going to effect them. I imagine the further away clients are from each other, they don't get sent anything about each it is just the server that keeps an eye on them.

 

The complaints about needing to download other tracks when joining online has been going on for two years now from what I can remember. There was a huge thread about this a year or so ago. If ISI had any plans to change it they would have responded already by now to that request. Also, making tracks not part of download means you have to separate them somehow from the vmod. This is not as easy as it sounds and it makes no sense either from software point of view. By definition, as Noel said, both client and server Sig needs to match, there is no easy way to just "remove" tracks from the check and make it work, at least it wouldn't be intuitive.

The intuitive solution is, as said, to make the download process and vmod creation more seamless. For example, server could be set to automatically create a new vmod containing only the current track after each track change. The vmod itself should be put more to background. Also the download process should be improved. Why do we have to rely on third party GetMod service of Noel to redirect to host links for components? Would be nice if ISI opened their own GetMod service to host links to third party mods. Also, the current system is unflexible when you have to repackage an entire component to add a GetMod URL. Ideally, you would specify the download location for each component included when you start the dedicated. There are too many things too deep hidden in the current interface to make it intuitive for third party content to be hosted. Once this is solved, it's only a small detail if you have to download, say, 2 extra tracks.

 

Yup, even if the whole auto-update thing isn't improved (I understand it is more the server's responsibility than it is ISI's), this issue HAS to be improved.

Scenario: Lets say you want to join a server; it has a pre-determined car list of 5 cars.....

- 4 original ISI - Corvette C6R, Nissan GTR, Honda Civic, Renault Clio (assuming everyone has these installed)
- 1 3rd party - The Toyota AE86

and 5 tracks.....

- 4 original ISI - Silverstone, Mills, Mores, Spa '67
- 1 3rd party - Silverstone '96 by John Doe V1.2.83H

A) If I have all the cars and tracks except the Toyota AE86 then I can understand if I can't join because if/when other people use the Toyota AE86 then my PC won't have the data to load the car on my end. (A generic placeholder car would be cool so that we could still join if we don't have every car, however, that is probably over-simplifying it; it's probably much more complex than this). This is fine, no problem.

However....

B) If I have all the cars and tracks except the "Silverstone '96 by John Doe V1.2.83H" track then it should still allow me to join if the server is not currently racing on that track. What if the server just finished racing on that track and the admin doesn't decide to race on that one again for another 3, 4, 5 hours? What if the tracks are alternating and they just finished using that track and now the server has to cycle through all the other tracks that I DO have? The server is using all cars and tracks that I have 100% installed for the next while yet I am locked out from joining because of 1 single track that they aren't even racing on.

That needs to seriously be changed. It locks everyone out from every server unless you go downloading a million tracks or you just run your server ONLY with ISI tracks (rather than a mix of ISI and 3rd party)

A) Aren't most cars and tracks only like 30-100 MB each? Isn't that fairly small for todays standards regarding internet speeds and bandwidth and such?...

B) Regardless of the whole downloading from server thing, the auto-dowwnload from URL has NEVER, EVER, EVER worked for me either. I'm guessig that this is not ISI's fault but the people who set up the server. It such an awssome idea though....

1) Imagine almost never needing to exit out of the game, manually go into your internet explorer, typing and going to a website, looking for the track, then downloading, but instead you just click getmod or whatever, and then it knows the exact link of the download file and it just downloads it straight to your packages directory and then installs. From my understanding this is what the current system is supposed to do but it never, ever works or seems to be setup properly .

2) The system should even allow you to setup multiple links for each track / car in case 1 link doesn't work

3) Also even let you choose which of those multiple links you want to download from

4) Finally, if worst comes to worst you can just copy and paste the direct link into your browser and manually download it that way, or go to that site and search because maybe the exact link slightly changed

5) At the absolute worst give the server the ability to type MUCH, MUCH more. Have a box where the server could write a whole paragraph if they wanted to, sort of like a further expanded/improved upon version that RF1 uses. This way, at the absolute worst, they can at least tell us which websites to go to to download cars and/or tracks, or any other sort or tips / general info that they want to give like assists, race weekend formst, general conduct, "you will be kicked if you have too high a ping", "no Red Bull fans allowed", lol whatever, just a box where they can write at least 2 or 3 sentences of whatever they choose.

I can see this happening with a lot of people. I personally don't mind if there is only 2, 3, or 4 people in a server, just let me join the bloody game for rF2 sakes lol (unless I don't have the track CURRENTLY being raced on, then obviously I understand if I can't join).

 

Well, that's what happened to me. I try to play rFactor2 at least one time per month, or every now and then when there's a new version. In almost two years, I've managed to participate in less than 10 races, I guess.
The rest of the time I spent playing it offline (5%) or playing other games (95%).
Having to have 500mb of tracks just to play a single one? No thanks.

I'll never understand why they choose this way, because rF1 (or all other games I can think of) worked just fine, provided you have (only) the same car/track. Period.
Thank God I didn't bought the full online version when it came out. It is about to expire next month, and I don't plan to renew. Just hope that AC doesn't take long to get MP going. Until then, Game Stock Car 2013 is the way to go.
Oh, and I really hope that things get even worst for rF2 and this stupid "mod model", because I want to be sure that no other games will ever try to follow this trend.

Ditto.

 

The problem is that pubby server admins are making it way too complicated. If you run a private server that has a forum or website closely associated, you can put whatever ont he server, everyone is on the same page and the downloads are easy to find. But with a pubby, you have to keep it easy and simple. 1 or 2 tracks, use only 1 or 2 mods. If someone is including 5 tracks and more than 1 mod on a pubby, they are set up for FAILURE.

I avoid pubbies in large part because I know I'll have 4 of the tracks and 1 will be a different version or just plain missing. It drives me nuts when I have 4 of the correct tracks and correct versions but the 5th is v0.91 and I have v0.92 and can't join. I think the .rfmod system blows goats. If I have the current track and the current mod that is on the server in the rotation RIGHT NOW, I should be able to join. period.

 

Quebec, OcioKart and Dallas here


Soto de Duenas and try Subida munco , good hillclimb. p
http://www.rfactorcentral.com/rfactor2/list.cfm?cat=Tracks&type=All

Sebring Club and Duena City try max out ratio.

Less time posting and more time getting the correct versions I think Guy.

Like you had 2 years to get what ? 100 tracks you need tops = 1 a week and a few other versions. lol ???

And what happens when you have the track in rotation and the next one you don't, you get booted.

Where is the value in that ?

P.S. Anyways after 2 years I use barely a handful of mods, it is no hassle to keep them refreshed, I do not see why it should be for anyone else.

BTW
The best thing about rF2 mods, no mismatches period.


The addon track naming , versions, release sites and IDs are a mismatch hodge podge , you cant blame ISI for that

Why don't modders get their act together, everyone was supposed to use the ID Notes virtually no one does !

 

Thanks man yup I found Soto and Dallas within 10 or 15 minutes, it was the other 2 tracks that the server had that I couldn't find if my life depended on it. One was the kart version of Infineon and one I think was Joesvelle Speedway? (Isn't Joesvelle the small oval from rF1 and from rF2 dev-mode?)

What do you mean? A track I downloaded last week would be useless for online play if it was updated and servers were using the updated version, let alone a track from 2 years ago.

Anyways once you know where to manually look and download a track then assuming that same site has the updated version it shouldn't be too difficult finding an updated track, the main problem is being forced to get the track in the first place even though you may never even run on it. THAT is completely useless, a waste of time, a waste of bandwidth, a waste of hard dive space, etc. just makes most people avoid rF2 online unless they just constantly run ISI tracks and only ISI tracks.

What do you mean where is the value in that? If a server is running 10 tracks and you have 9 then the value is that, well, you can join the server and play the game rather than being completely locked out because you don't have 1 out of 10 tracks, not to mention there is a 90% chance that you have the track currently being played on yet you are still locked out. It's beyond ridiculous.

 

Brings to mind a famous quote

 

Well imho there is no value in a sim boots you from a online room, period, simple as that ? lopl
rF2 that can't happen it is a thing of the past.

What is ridiculous in 2014.......

Mismatches
Booted for no content
Extracting zips, inspecting, searching, deleting, replacing.

Mod Manager like anything .....Pros and cons


People seem to miss a BIG point, why you cant join any room with just the mod and track that are up.

It revolves around the entire concept of having ID MODS preventing mismatches in the first place. ????




BTW: Joesville is in the Nascar Mod in the 3rd party car section mate.

rF2 was easy for even me to make my own Joesville and Orchard Lake Ovals from the mod. ( I think they okay to talk about lol I should post them both, don't think they have threads )

 

X2.

...and alot of online servers run on tracks that are very hard to find for a newbie, or even a seasoned racer sometimes. And if you find them they are definitely not up to modern standards of quality and features. With the amount of quality tracks easily available now you'd think, for the purpose of online racing and getting more people to join, admins should have plenty to choose from. Now it seems like many servers (and especially leagues) want to be small and secret.

 

How is being booted for not having content ridiculous in 2014? It's just as "ridiculous" as forcing people to download tracks they don't need. All they are is bloatware, simple as that. It's a lose lose situation either way, and seemingly something that can't be on a toggle basis. I'd certainly prefer to be prompted with the option to download the track if I want rather than being forced to download who knows what track just to join when I have the track being raced.

 

How is it ridiculous if you get booted for trying to join a game that is running a track that you don't have? What do you expect to happen? Not get booted and magically drive on a track that is not installed on your PC?? Lol

I still don't think you understand what I'm saying, if a server is running 10 tracks and you have 9 of those installed then why should you not be EVER allowed to join that server even if you have the track currently being used? Why should you be locked out of EVERY RACE SESSION REGARDLESS OF TRACK BEING USED just because you don't have 1 single track out of 10? You have all the other tracks, once they rotate, or the admin decides to use that 1 single track that you don't have THEN the server can boot you with some sort of message saying "You do not have the track so you could not continue on in the server, please install the required track or try rejoining at a later time when the server may be on a track that you do have installed" or something like that. Rather than just not letting you play AT ALL just because you don't have one single track (of which the server is most likely not even using) out of 10.

 

I dont think you can expect modders to host their modules, and manage the hosting in the long term. Even if they use free hosting, what will happen when modders have quits rf2, free hosting expire link or blocked it, etc. As long as ISI rely on this, i'm pretty it will never work properly

Its just not modders "duty" to keep mods online, with correct bandwith for all around the world, etc.
Expect modders to mods and do their artistic skills. Expect server admin to admin and host !

Noel you say some admins are stubborn but well, give them the abbility to workaround this problem and they will.
If servers admin could just provide an URL where they may host the modules for their servers (may or may not be the same server) it would be sooo easy. I really dont understand why you dont want to do this. Not that hard i guess. Repackaging mods to be able to push them to players is just non sense to me.
Please dont forget: this is a game to us, most of us have a real work during day time ... and even if during day we work in software and/or admin as i do, on evening i dont want to take hours of complicated/not well documented (concise) process to play or host.


Same things when you want to add custom skins, after an evening, installing gimp, plugins, repackaging... it was working as single player but not multi... i gave up.
Having to repackage to create a race with a a selected car selection and track selection is also quite crazy to me..

There s ton of thread on this topic but still its player/mods/admin mods fault it seems ...
I m not sure that only admins are stubborn in all this actually ! sorry about this but its really annoying .. tts a real waste to me, as rf2 is excellent on many point and im very grateful about all the great content you keep delivering. But please take the time to work on easibility.

Simplify hosting with a server dl url or any similar simple mechanism, and im really sure it will helps a lot to have more players and have FUN instead of frustration


(sorry about my bad english)

 

Very good post. You seem to have a grasp on how it works and a reasonable solution. I believe fully automated vmod creation is already in the works. Step one of that was the removal of the registration process because they didn't want gazillions of random vmods getting registered once it is fully automated.

As for repacking components just to change a vmod. I have a tool that will let you right click on an rfcmp in explorer, select "Change URL" from the context menu and then it pops up a dialog with the GetMod URL you want to change to and it remembers what ever URL you used last so basically you just hit OK. Then it spits out a new rfcmp that has your own URL but keeps the same sig. Once the URL is changed it's just a matter of installing the new component and building a new vmod. I also have a tool that registers the component on my service without even needing to browse to my site and register by hand. This tool is batch driven right now because in our league we are making lots of changes to our mod and releasing small updates every few days. I wanted to fully automate the process of taking a car from Devmode and building an rfcmp, uploading it to our host and registering it on my service.

Anyways the whole process could be simplified to this.

1: right click on a rfcmp file, select "Change URL", hit ok.

2: Upload the new component to your Dropbox account (or what ever webhost you want to use). Then get a direct URL on your clipboard.

3: Right click on the new rfcmp file and this time select "Register". Now paste your Dropbox download URL and click OK.

That is it. This component is now fully GetMod enabled. Now install it on your server and build a vmod.

 

A) Yes you are right. In today's age we have lots of "downstream" bandwidth. But the downstream isn't the problem. It's the servers upstream. Someone hosting from their house is most likely only going to have 2Mb or so and rF2's data alone will fully saturate that. So there is nothing left to send components with. That is why GetMod was designed to offload this task to webservers.

2) Uninstall all your ISI content and then join an ISI server. You will see what it is like to join a properly setup server. If you have never seen auto download work, that is because you've never joined a properly setup server.

1) yes you are correct. This is how the current system is designed to work an it does work when setup.

2) It already support multiple download links. The way it works is the game takes the GeMod URL from the rfcmp and then appends the components signature to the end. So the URL ends up looking sort of like this: HTTP://somehost.com/GetMod.php?sig=dbssjdhdbfgshauahsvg

Then the webhost on the other end (my GetMod service) takes the sig that was supplied in the URL and then looks it up in the database to get the actual download URL and then redirects to that link. But when you register the component on my service you can add as many download URLs as you wish. My system will auto load balance between them. So one GetMod URL in the rfcmp actually gets redirected to how ever many you want.

3) Letting people pick the link would just lead to everyone using the first one on the list causing links to die from going over their quotas.

4) If the link didn't work from rF2, what makes you think it will work in a browser? The failure isn't in rF2, it's in the link itself. Most components either don't have a link or they have a link that points to their homepage. If there isn't a URL then the game appends the sig to an empty string (kind of stupid) and ends up with a link like this: HTTP://?sig=frjsjfbdrjfidiarbrjsfgs

That URL will never work anywhere.

Long story short, the system works. It's just impossible to get people to use it.

 

I just meant that from the direct URL you can at least find out and visit the website to manually go look for it that's all, I believe you can do that now as you can see the URL it attempts to download from even on the current system, maybe I shouldn't have listed it.

Long story short, we cannot join a game running on a track and with cars that we have installed if we don't happen to have even one single other track on the server's list of possible tracks it may run on.

"10 races from now I may decide to run on a track that you don't have, but until then I will run on all tracks that you DO have installed...but because you don't have that 1 single track that I MAY run on in 10 races from now then too bad you can't join ANY of my 9 races before hand of which all run on tracks that you DO have installed". I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous philosophy in the history of multiplayer gaming.

 

That is what GetMod was trying to avoid!!! rF1 was full of all that crap!! Go to this site and download this, then go to that site to download that! Imagine when the rF2 world gets bigger and we have hundreds of tracks by all different authors. Even a list of 5 tracks leads you to go to 5 different sites (many cheekily behind forum registration).

Someone mentioned that ISI host third party tracks so the mod creators don't have to. You clearly have no idea about legality and how much "hot water" ISI could get in if they decide to HOST third party tracks which could have assets from other games, direct conversions or even a track where the people who own it don't want people creating their track in a virtual world.

It is the MOD CREATOR'S RESPONSIBILITY to create their track/car and tell users where to find it. I have used Noel's system and it is not hard at all! Dropbox is FREE to download for hosting and it is just pure laziness by whoever creates the content and puts it out into the public domain improperly filled in. It is ISI's RESPONSIBILITY for error checking when making these mods so that vital bits of information aren't skipped. Don't have a getmod address? Sorry no mod for you!

The fact the server list is filled with servers with no drivers says a lot about server admins that they wouldn't check that people could enter in the first place. How many of them check their traffic? How many of them wonder why they haven't had anyone using their server? It is because of the things you have all mentioned about putting 10 tracks in a mod. That BREAKS THE SYSTEM which is not broken, it is FLAWED but not broken. If server admins want racers on their servers, use Noel's tool... check that the tracks and cars have the getmod addresses so that racers can actually join!!