May be but you can't ignore the fact that none of Reiza would exist had ISI not create gmotor engine. It's the same as Counter Strike, huge credit of whatever they made out of HalfLife must go to Valve because there would be no CS without Valve.
Over the last 2 years I don't see much change in the numbers of people online. The number of locked populated servers is increasing which means leagues are adapting. The hardware required to run rF2 nicely is still beyond a lot of people but time will change that. The next release is automatic karts, I expect a small surge with that, it will appeal to the people who want to jump online for a quick race (but still take forever to master). It's never going to compete with the numbers who want a game based around reality, this is the only title that is pushing the boundaries. Will any of those games you mention ever have different grip levels on a curb or white line, will that grip level change with humidity, will the tracks be different every time you drive them depending on time of day and weather conditions? Are they even trying to be simulations? You need to compare apples with apples. Nobody else is growing apples.
It is not uncommon at all for today's game companies using 3rd party engines, I don't understand what is the problem there?
I'm nothing to say against Reiza. But I guess to use WarCraft engine to do DOTA mod that later is another game (different game from same engine) It's not the same to use a sim engine to do "another" sim. rFactor is entirely based in his gMotor and pMotor engines, if you use entirely these engines you are just using rFactor. Reiza is doing a good work as modders. Game Stock Car is just a custom rF1 version with their own mods, not a different game using a rF based engine, if there is something Reiza did fine from begining, is to do GREAT mods in rF1... they decided to create their own custom rF1 version with all quality content they could create. You are really paying for a rF1 quality modding, you are paying to let them work in more of this content. To compare this with AC or other sims is just weird. GSC is rF quality modding, no more.
There is no problem there, but to put a company that is using a third party engine in the same category as the companies that make their own engines from scratch is just laughable. Anyone with the funds can buy a license to an engine and use it to make a product just as good as the one made using that engine by the original developer, but that doesn't make that licensed developer as great as the engine developer. It just has allowed them to use the engine developers technology to make their own game that good, but to classify them as equal to the engine developer or other engine developers is wrong because they didn't make their own engine. Reiza may have a great game, but its thanks to the ISI engine.
So engine developers are always the best even they make lousy games with it? Sure, rF1 engine is old as hell but Reiza has taken pretty much everything possible out of it. There is no need to underestimate that. ISI strength indeed is in racing simulator engine development, but not in content creation.
You can make all the content in the world, it means squat if you don't have an engine. And if you use someone else's engine, you can't be compared to them in the entirety as the engine developer your using. Sure content wise Reiza could be compared to ISI or SMS or Kunos. Quality wise of their assets they could be compared. But as a game developer, no, they can't be until they make their own entirely standalone game. When they do that, you can compare them with ISI, SMS and Kunos as a game developer.
So people making games with Unity 3D are not game developers? Or those making games with UDK or CryEngine? BeamNG uses Torque3D engine, they are not game developers? Engine development and game development are two different things. Of course you are right, those cannot be compared. But saying that people who use these engines with their own projects are not game developers, shows just plain ignorance. Maybe you are using 3D Studio Max, but you are not real artist if you don't develop your own 3D Graphic software.
You confuse the differences between those engines and ISI's engine. It is true that people make games with Unity3D, CryEngine and the others you mentioned, but they still have to code everything themselves for the game they are making. Those engines provide the bare infrastructure for development, you then have to develop the entire source code for graphics, physics, animations and any other aspect you want for your game. So that is entirely different. You don't get a pre-made code ready for you to just start adding your content. We ourselves use Unity3D for the prototype development of WRS to put up to investors, but we have developed our own shaders, our own C# scripting languages for AI and other elements, and use our own complete scratch made physics engine integrated into Unity3D using our graphics changes. The full WRS when funding is acquired we aim to make the graphics engine completely from scratch and not use unity at all. ISI's engine is a pre-made engine, you don't need to do anything to it once you buy it, you can just start adding your assets, change whatever you like if that is your desire, and voila, you got a game out. That is the differences between the engines you stated and ISI's pre-built engine. If Reiza had used Unity3D or UDK or CryEngine and made their game exactly as it is now with those, then they could be credited and compared to these companies on a developer standpoint to a degree, but they didn't do that. Let me explain it to you in a modders terms. I run a mod group, we develop mods. If someone releases a mod who's only flaw is the graphics quality of their skins, and I take that mod with permission, update the skins, release it with my own name, does that make me as great as the original mod author who made all the models, the physics, the sounds, and everything else that made the mod popular to begin with? If you think yes, then you are completely wrong. And this is the exact same scenario with Reiza. Taking someone else's hard work and using it to make your own and then be compared to the original author's level who developed everything from scratch compared to you who only did some, that is not right. And again, don't misunderstand the context of my post. I'm not saying Reiza doesn't deserve praise for the way they made their game. I'm saying its wrong to compare them to ISI, SMS and Kunos in a developer standpoint. In fact, Reiza has done a great job with the ISI engine, but an ISI they are not, nor are they an SMS or a Kunos. They have a long way to reach that.
I'd say that whoever makes (legally of course) the best end product out of whatever engine/platform as a basis, is the best end product developer. Original developers may have made the best engine ever, but they only compete with other engine developers. You can't sell plain engines to gamers, you need to have the actual game or real content. I believe Reiza and Simbin before Raceroom has done the best job in this area so far. Of course this will change when pCARS, AC and maybe even rF2 gets finished - if they ever will. Then there are developers like Papyrus (RIP) which at the time made the best engine, but also the best racing games with it. But that doesn't seem to happen nowadays (in our genre), as the engine development alone is so large chunk that the actual content creation needs to be outsourced to 3rd party developers (modders, Reiza, etc). To be honest, I have little hopes for AC, pCARS and ISI to present any content comparable to Reiza titles. That is: overall polished and nicely packaged total product with full championship run including all the required tracks and cars. I wouldn't mind for even more features, but that's what ISI engine can offer at max. In pure engine development, ISI is the winner. In pure content development, current winner is Reiza. When there is a product that uses rF2 engine but gives content with similar approach as Reiza, that will be the eventual winner in my book.
They will never be finished. None, no game is ever finished. This concept of "Finished" gamers have is really non existant. Games constantly get updated on PC. Some developers choose to update more than others, but no game is really ever complete. It just gets to a stage the developer doesn't want to bother with it anymore and moves to a new product and leaves the current product at that. Gamers think that makes it final, and that's wrong, its not final or finished, its just abandoned for a new project. pCARS, AC, rF2, they will never be done, just like rF1 isn't finished. Like all PC games they will constantly be updated with new things time over time until the developer decides to stop supporting the game and move onto something else. rF2 right now is finished. It may not be in some people's eyes but it is a released product, what ISI is doing now is just updating with fixes, content and updates in my view. Its gamers who decide to think that its not done and that a game being updated the way ISI is doing it means that the game is not done, well that is wrong. To be honest with you, I don't see what content your talking about. An unknown series to most of the world the Brazilian Stock Cars and also most of the other stuff they provide is really not worth the game's price in my view. There is nothing content wise in Reiza's GSC that makes me want to purchase it. But I look at the content of rF2, AC and pCARS and it appeals to me greatly. It may appeal to you as a gamer and that is perfectly 100% fine, but as a general whole in the gaming world, GSC is pretty much nothing exciting really. I can see why people in that region of the world would love it, but that's about it really. I have no care for the content they have in their game. Winners that your stating is really no point. There is no real winner because it all boils down to each individual's desires and likes. If we go technically. pCARS has the best engine graphically, ISI have the best engine physics wise, and all of them have great content that each appeals to their own audience. That alone should be enough. The "He is the winner, this game's the winner and that developer's the winner" is a whole crock of bolony if you ask me.
Does that mean youre not interested in the your own content that you've released, since both a classic F1 car of similar era and a f3 car are in GSC...
The content I've released are my own series, my own creations, just like Reiza created their own. I didn't mean those as most games today have their own equivalents of open wheelers that emulate real series, so those are standard everywhere. But when you look at the official content, there is nothing there I care about.
We always want more no matter how good something is. We are wanting perfection, the ultimate sim (or any other game genre). That is something that we can't never get obviously. Still we can talk about "finished" or "ready" product. You can change the meaning of terms when they wouldn't exist otherwise. Being finished is something that meets some basic standards of what most expects from this sim. In case of rf2, being finished would mean bug free features: grip, tyres, weather, collision, damage, night/day transition, mp, AI (can always be improved I know) etc. important things we know will come and that separates rf2 from other products.
Hiya all Mark -your mods are great I wish your team also did quality tracks P.s re.Reiza's next project -they have stated will not be on the ISI engine, they are building their own I was hoping it would be on the rf2 engine but very very sadly this will not be the case. I don't want to jump to conclusions why this is the case but to me it's very bad news. ( source -a few emails I exchanged directly with them few months ago ) I think a mod team needs to take hold of rf2 & release a good series ( quality track pack & maybe cars to go with it) if a hit rf2 could really take off. ------------------- HistorX I believe (is it still the case? ) is intended to be released on rf2 Although I think the mod team are awaiting rf2 to become more complete -(read this somewhere on their forums), although again these are cars not tracks )-: -------------- Rf2 is a waiting game, things will come right sooner or later, I've been using rf1 lately (didn't realise how much I've missed it whilst distracted by rf2 etc) It's obvious how good it's (rf1) has become, if rf2 is only half as successful then it will be a brilliant sim. Re.rf1 I'm having to wire a shifter using spare buttons on my pedal circuit board as otherwise can't get a third controller to work with it !%!*!
Not sure how much of an update the next build will be, there's a mention of a HDR rework (is this the core shaders or is this different ), if it's worth doing at this stage it would be great if ISI could give their official tracks another going over -as silverstone has had, not tried the new version yet but have read positive things. If the optimisation/quality of official tracks were upgraded together with up to date HDR profiles this would be a big boost for rf2, ( with consistant performance between each track as much as possible) throw in a revamped UI then maybe it will be time to promote ? +hype up dynamic weather updates coming in the future etc for everyone to look forward too. Get oculus rift official support & in the new UI options too - rf2 dosnt need to feel 10yrs old!!! Suddenly rf2 will seem much more complete / water tight / polished Maybe more modders will jump in then (a simple packaging/procedure tutorial as well may be good to really get them going ) Just my thoughts
I know in some way how track modding works... and if modders don't want to jump It's not beacuse of the impossibility to mod for rF2. I just know a guy who had 0 knowledge about modding (no 3D experience, nothing), who now in some months know how to convert a track, edit the mesh, work with textures, edit materals... and if he needed months to achieve a good looking track (he will not release It because he want to learn even more and try to do great jobs) was not beacuse of rF2, was because of he needed to learn about 3D editing. To make a track works in rF2 he just needed... 1 min with packaging system? he had no problems to make run his first track in rF2, and as I said, It's a completly NOOB in this 3D world. Packaging system as excuse for modders is just weird, sim It's 100% ready for modding just know, at least for track modding and feels3 and Tuttle agree wuth me, for sure!... don't know in cars side. But what we need now in rF2 is quality tracks, ISI covered a large field of categories in cars, I did not raced all deeply in 2 years of driving. PS: I agree we would need an updated UI, and we know ISI is working in a more complete weather, and HDR.
Exactly, there is no excuse for modders to be waiting to mod rF2. All their complaints are stupid. Even in the car modding its perfectly fine and in the rare case that an update does require you to update your mod, its not hard to do so. The only time we found we had to update our mods after an update was due to naming conventions causing conflicts which is why we later changed to our own prefix. Now we don't have issues and haven't had in a number of updates. Modders need to stop whining and start working.
