What becomes of rFactor2?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kickbox, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    Instead the company does neither and gets neither the game engine nor the content done in a timely fashion. With a small crew (as we are reminded daily) you can't get everything done, so maybe the company needs to make up it's mind about which is most important? As it stands, nothing is important enough to do in any reasonable time frame.
     
  2. 88mphTim

    88mphTim racesimcentral.net

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    Who exactly is reminding you of that? It's not us. The apparent shock at hearing the track team is small is a logical reaction to NOT being told it on a daily basis. No?

    Our minds are absolutely fine, thanks. As my quote suggested, I think you have some work to do in that regard. What we might need is a change in the community, more than anything else.

    Compare to anybody you wish to with regards to actual new content releases, or actual differences from build to build. Not fluff, and not things that were held as staged releases you saw in essentially finished form months before you got it to drive sales in an early stage of release. As I've already said, I think some people are getting duped a bit by the feeling of constant development, when in fact, it isn't really happening much faster anywhere, large team, or small. I've seen people on this forum impressed by huge long changelog, where the same thing was said 5 different ways. It's fluff, if you can't accept that our bellybuttons are clean of it, that's really something you need to work on. Honestly, I think there's plenty of reasons to want a development team to go faster, and to express that, without resorting to the incomprehensible arguments and points some people make, which usually just shows how little they actually understand and notice from both us and other developers.
     
  3. cosimo

    cosimo Registered

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    I can't believe I'm reading this stuff... seriously people, what's wrong with you?

    Indy IMS and AC Cobra are coming, we got Civic BTCC on freaking new years eve and Silverstone just got a great update in the meantime...
     
  4. Galaga

    Galaga Banned

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    man that cobra's going to be awesome...

    looking forward to that roadster, too. especially if it has a clutch. or actually i don't care because i drive everything with a clutch anyway :p

    i look to isi for mods mainly because they do such an amazing job with them. tracks are great too but i am looking for more community stuff there b/c i prefer fantasy stuff.

    anyway i think rf2 is brilliant as is and 99% of what i am interested in is more fantasy tracks although i will appreciate stuff like any driveline stuff or rally support.

    keep truck'n isi :D
     
  5. Emil Zhelyazkov

    Emil Zhelyazkov Registered

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    +1

    Sent from my GT-I9300
     
  6. ForthRight

    ForthRight Registered

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    I must admit to being shocked when I found out the team working on tracks consisted of just two people, but you can't argue with the recent quality, and to be honest I think the other sims are slowing down a lot too (despite their larger teams). They release more frequent updates (information) but not really regular content or substantial features.

    Raceroom Hotlap Experience took forever just to add AI. In fact did they even add it yet? I don't know because I lost all interest in the 'sim'.

    It's clear with Assetto Corsa they held a lot of finished content back when they started their early access program, with the plan of releasing it in staged updates. It worked very well (in my opinion), but they've ran out of this content now and the recent updates are much smaller. I think you can already see some frustration or disappointment from Steam users who didn't realise this and are wondering why they aren't getting a couple of new cars and tracks every two weeks. It was never going to happen.

    With pCARS I have to give them credit as their updates for the first few months were simply relentless -I felt like I had new cars, tracks and features coming out of my ears. Unfortunately the novelty soon wore off - you can have all the cars and tracks in the world, it doesn't really matter if you don't enjoy driving them.

    rFactor 2 is a bit more erratic, sometimes we have a new build and content within the space of a few days and sometimes there can be well over a month with nothing. Like pCARS it doesn't really matter here either, but for the opposite reason - the content and overall driving experience in rFactor 2 is already so high that I can happily drive what we've already got for days - I feel like I simply don't have enough free time in my life to enjoy every car and track as I'd want to.

    Unfortunately the rFactor 2 forum sometimes has an atmosphere of hostility which I haven't seen elsewhere. Maybe there is confusion when a build is reported as going into testing (hoping for planned release) but then two or three weeks later nothing has 'happened'. I'm sure plenty is happening behind the scenes, but the members here don't get to see that, and they often don't hear anything about it, so some of them start wondering if the company has gone to sleep. I guess that's just the communication thing again.

    I should stop typing now - I feel like I'm sending people to sleep with my rambling.

    I really can't wait for the karts though - I'm so interested to see what ISI has done with them, and how well they've captured the experience of the most pure of motorsports. :)
     
  7. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    hear hear
     
  8. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    Just in case,

    [​IMG]
     
  9. C3PO

    C3PO Registered

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    I'm sure there are some great things to come from ISI in terms of core improvements. They're not stupid.
     
  10. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    It took pCARS exactly the same length of time to move from absolutely horrid FFB and (lack of) physics to showing some underlying promise that some day it might have passable or maybe even good FFB and physics as it took rF2 to go from horrible lighting and some major graphics lack of optimization to what we have now.

    AC held back some content--we all know that. It is yet to be determined how fast they will be able to continue development and how far down the pure sim path they will go. Good luck to them.

    It took iRacing MORE THAN 5 YEARS to get a tire model that is the equal (more or less) of what rF2 had from day 1. Still only half the cars use it while we wait for the other half to trickle in a few every quarterly build. I have to say that only with "NTM 5" is iRacing enjoyable for those of us who prefer realism over pure digital competition (where the Gregor Huttu's can win no matter what physics gymnastics are happening). The cars finally respond like real cars using rubber tires. I think there are a few brains and dollars invested in that development compared to ISI's.

    As I said above, rF2 has nothing to be ashamed of in terms of output/$ or hour of effort or brain cycle. But somehow pCARS, AC and iRacing have hard core fans who are truly excited about "their" product--sometimes to the point of fanboy silliness. Here, we have an increasing amount of grumbling and people are now noticing the grumbling and grumbling about it. Why? What is different?

    One difference is that when someone offers that they "love" rF2 so much they are willing to pay for content that ISI has agreed to give away, they are treated like a pariah who doesn't understand the business model. When someone asks for some vague outline of a features development plan and timetable, they are told it's not part of the business practice to provide that. We are constantly told that rF2 has left beta (can't remember the switch-over date), yet most people who have experienced using the product and who have been around a while would suggest it's still in beta.

    rF2 is awesome. What ISI has accomplished is awesome--even relative to much larger teams with deeper pockets. But it's not enough. Why?

    Because rF2 is also not awesome. It is incredibly frustrating in several key ways that spoil the user experience for all but the few who are hard core dedicated fans.

    One simple example (I don't need to reiterate the hundreds of examples strewn throughout the forum): we just got an updated Silverstone. A track that has been a huge hit with rF2 owners. It exhibits the latest in ISI track making detail and quality. Where's the HDR profile that works properly with it?

    iRacing used to have a similar problem. They would release carefully crafted cars with the crappiest default set-ups known to exist. "The fun is in finding and customizing your own set-up." No, the fun is in jumping in a new (to you) race car and experiencing something akin to what a beginner or moderately experienced racer would experience. We don't need or want a knife-edge set-up, but neither do we want a set-up so awful that you ask yourself why would anyone want to race a piece of crap like that? They spent months simulating the car, but couldn't/didn't invest the last few hours in releasing a proper set-up for it.

    So many of rF2's best features are masked, hidden, require arcane tweaking, etc., to truly see how awesome the experience can be. It's as though an anti-sales orientation pervades the development. That was a bad idea at any time, but might have been acceptable during an alpha or beta period. But now that we are supposedly past official release, what possible rationale is there for continuously shooting yourself in the foot by not finishing or providing user-friendly access to key features in the product and/or refusing to set proper expectations about when missing or anticipated features are to appear?

    The grumbling I read all over this board is almost all due to various versions of this expectations gap, not any sense that rF2 is fundamentally flawed or bad or ultimately uncompetitive.
     
  11. 88mphTim

    88mphTim racesimcentral.net

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    As Jeremy has mentioned, next build includes HDR changes. This is related. I agree we didn't make that obvious.

    Nice, considerate and intelligent post.
     
  12. Acestumacher

    Acestumacher Registered

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    Keep it going ISI as you are, rF1 was a success and still is and rF2 will be aswell!!!!!!!!
     
  13. Jerry Luis

    Jerry Luis Banned

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  14. Jerry Luis

    Jerry Luis Banned

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    :fear:
     
  15. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Nice post Marc and I agree on most of it!
    They make it too complicated and I REALLY ask myself several times
    why ISI seems to be so.....self destructed(?) (exaggerated)
    I mean: Why is EVERYTHING so hard in rF2?
    UI is (relatively) hard, tweaking is hard as hell, communication is hard....

    In what I STRONGLY disagree is in terms of payment.
    The ISI way is the correct way and I (and most others) DONT want to pay for
    other content! And that´s not needed or in any way helpful!
    I would say you get more rid of customers with this payment-model as you win.
    But too many people are brainwashed by silly payment-models and free-to-play-**** nowadays it seems...

    Greets
    Pete
     
  16. kimikaze

    kimikaze Registered

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    Yup ISI payment model is one of the best and one of the most honest one out there for sure. On how many games we get refund if we don't like a game? I can remember none right now. The Developer must be really confident to distribute game in that way and believe in own ability to collect consumers with quality product rather than with nowadays selling models. Is actually funny, that today we can a lot of times without looking at game itself figure out just by selling strategy, which game is "serious" and which is just..you know. More frequently and loud we hear the words like "advance, technology, best, first in the world, best selling, and so on" the more is chances that the product is actually bad or is not representing the advertised capabilities. So kudos to ISI.
     
  17. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    I have to upgrade soon

    Up till now has cost me roughly 40 cents a week to online.

    I cant buy a box of matches for 40c
     
  18. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    What becomes of rF2 you ask?

    Well it's my feeling that it'll continue to grow and expand, with a lot more great ISI content, exceptional 3rd party content and refined original core features.
    In my humble opinion this sim will take the sim racing crown of this generation, albeit in time. Development is slow but steady, and I have decided to just be patient instead of the impatience of too many people in this community.

    The devs do all they can, that is quite apparent to me by now. They are hugely talented people, but only people nonetheless. Everybody wants new builds, features and content in a hurry, because it’s all so great, but everybody just needs to cool down a bit and be patient. That’s my opinion anyway. With the lifetime option I paid for, I feel I have gotten my money's worth in return many times over. I couldn't be happier.
    In my current employment situation I would also happily pay for DLC in the future. Not to say my opinion on this matter wouldn't change if I made less money than I do now. But no doubt, currently I woulnd't mind throwing some more money at ISI, because with the job they're doing on this sim, I feel it's more than well deserved.

    I must say I'm completely blown away by this sim, to the extent that I'm having a hard time enjoying others sims actually.
    I went astray a couple of weeks ago, driving iRacing and Assetto Corsa. Boy was I glad to return to rF2!
    Both those titles are so full of nasty surprises during racing, that it's just frustrating instead of fun.

    To me, the physics are wonky and wacky, and I don't feel the cars in the same connected way I do in rF2.
    Granted, both iR and AC are flashy graphically and well marketed/promoted, but that's about it. The pure racing enjoyment, for me at least, is in rF2.

    iRacing lured me in again, for the first time in months, with the combination of the RUF track-spec plus Bathurst. I wish I never got near that combo... As well as many other combos in the past.
    Ridiculous physics glitches, with the worst timing, in the two official races I started in scared the bejesus out of me and completely trashed my Safety Rating/iRating.
    I was not able to avoid crashing the car, in both races, because of sudden inexplicable grip loss. In the last race I managed to wipe out the 2nd placed driver too. Awful stuff. During practice the car flipped (!) when lightly touching the curbs on the inside of the last corner.

    iRacing makes me feel like a bad, untalented driver and slow driver, even though I know I'm not. This is what makes it frustrating, and a bit intimidating, since others (paying customers!) are on track with me, and crashes and contacts have a pretty big impact in this sim. It turns me off completely. I can't enjoy it if I don't feel in control.

    Assetto Corsa, imo, has weird physics too and especially the FFB has been a source of unlimited frustration for me. The amount of hours I have put in to just find a barely decent "feel" is outrageous. Still I feel I have no contact with the road, I can't feel the tyres letting go of the road before it's too late, and a lot of pointless noisy vibration, even when the car is stationary. Braking hard in most of the cars feels like it will kill my G27.

    The AI added in a recent update is useless to me, because I don't find it funny to get rammed off the road multiple times during every race.
    I really want to love AC, but in its current state that's impossible. Future updates may change that, but I have a feeling that those physics will never quite fly with me. It has a weird sense of “glued to the road” combined with inexplicable grip loss. Again, the lack of control these physics allow turn me off quite a bit.

    The "feel" of the ISI cars however, tyres and suspension translated into the raw uncompromising FFB is beyond me; it feels fantastic.
    The FFB allows for unprecedented levels of control over the cars, and therefore unprecedented levels of fun and excitement. Nothing comes close to this imo. I always feel in control!

    Not to say rF2 is easy to drive per say, of course it isn’t. It’s full blown sim. But the amount of realistic information going through the wheel always tells me what is going on beneath me. I know where and when I can push. When I intentionally try to go over the limit, I crash or spin. I know what causes me to go off and I know how to avoid it. This is pure racing joy!

    The evolving track, Real Road, is to me one of the factors that’ll make sure rF2 will stay above the other sims. I find it so boring to drive around in iRacing and Assetto Corsa knowing that the track is the same, lap after lap; boring and unrealistic.
    The feeling some people have in rF2, that it’s like driving on ice… Well, I don’t get that at all. After a lap or two, warming up the tyres, I feel I have a realistic amount of grip. I know the track can be quite slippery in some conditions, but that is like real life. I enjoy that challenge of an evolving track, and I feel it gives me an edge during races. Many people seem to not understand the tracks and the tyres, and I guess that frustrates them immensely. I just enjoy it.

    Well, to break off this rather prolonged ramble (and cheers to those who managed to read through it lol)… IMO rF2 has a bright future ahead of it. This sim means so much to me and I can’t wait to see what we’ll be treated to in the coming years. I just felt I had to share my views on this and competing sims, because rF2 means the world to me.

    [let the “didn’t read lol”-gif’s commence]
     
  19. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    I saw that coming before AC was released.
    There was a lot of hype around AC that got people paying for preorders. Reality check is a b***h ;)
    Ok, maybe it's easy for me to say. I deal with this kind of "reality check" in my work. Most people never had to do an effort/cost estimation of software project, so they go by guts instinct.

    I actually paid for NKP to try AC early. I never even installed NKP, but I appreciate their work on both NKP and AC. So I considered it a donation and tried what AC has to offer. But even back then I knew I will likely wait with purchase of full AC. Maybe that's why I tried the alpha version in the first place - because I knew I wouldn't be driving AC anytime soon.

    With rF2 it was different - I knew I'm going to buy it eventually, because I could see where it's going, by looking at all these unfinished features. With lifetime license it made no difference when I buy it, so I bought it early.
    With AC I can't tell if I ever buy it. Likely, but I don't know when.

    That's the thing with rF2. People don't like unfinished features. And neither do I, actually :) I just don't use them. I don't race in the rain in rF2, I don't do endurance racing, I don't do night racing - too many issues with these. But it would be the same in AC - I wouldn't do any of these either. The difference in rF2 is that I can see where it's heading.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2014
  20. Bsmooth

    Bsmooth Registered

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    "The difference in rF2 is that I can see where it's heading." You must have a crystal ball :). Thats just the thing with me I can't see where its headed at all. I know what you mean about those investments, because I bought into Pcars, but not AC. Pcars looked great, but IMO didn't own up to the hype, especially after a couple updates.
    I'm sold on iRacing, just not the lack of an AI with it, but that was never a priority with iRacing anyways.
    The part I think I'm most disappointed with with RF2 is you can't use a lot of the content that the original RFactor had, which had time to develop.
    Now If I go by that history and development pattern. RF2 will get really good, just before RF3 comes out and we start over again.
    This is what happened, so hopefully you can see where I'm concerned as far as where RF2 is going.
     

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