What's the point of Real Road?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by martymoose, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Dont get me wrong I think this is or should i say will be the best feature of RF2, my biggest gripe with it is when racing online and the crazy rate at which it is implemented. Why does every track resemble the start line of a drag strip? This is on nearly all servers and also including the ISI ones which is the greatest disappointment of all.

    If all you guys want to do is race on a track that has maximum grip on the entire surface then what is the point. Is this to mask physics issues and the cars in most people's view here are only driveble on a rubber road not one that resembles a real world track.

    Sure green is as expected and not a state you will get on very many commonly used circuits but that joke of a track fully rubbered up is my biggest turn off to online racing here. The fact that the rate is still accelerated 2 years on is another joke, I have heard from ISI that they want to do it properly but dont want to make a slower fake rate, why is this? do they prefer a crazy fast fake rate that turns their real road implementation into a complete joke.

    Seeing online is pretty quiet with most servers considered busy with more then 5 people on it how do all the tracks look like that 30 year old drag strip? What is the point of weather if you can drive a wet race with 20+ AI and use slicks at the rear of the pack no matter how hard it rains.

    Whats wrong with a little realism here, set tracks with a preset light rubbering or heavy rubber but even heavy I would say is about 5% of the typical server level atm. Then make each car have a realistic effect on the circuit not 1 lap in a civic lays down as much rubber as a full grid of F1 cars on soft rubber.

    The most Ironic thing is that many RF2 fanboys bag out other sims for having supposedly too much grip, yet they only race theirs on a dragstrip which has way more grip then any other sim. This when there could be a great real road system used but its being completely wasted both by the devs and server admins all round. If the rate is so accelerated then why on earth would you save the last session of rubber for the next weekend. 1 race weekend on a server with 10 cars and this is an hours running on average, gets more rubber then any real track has in 1 weekend that has a full schedule 10hrs a day over 4 days.
     
  2. Radar

    Radar Registered

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    The problem you will find is that people complain they are driving on ice, so now as you say it's a drag strip and less people complaining it's too slippery. Some people it would appear, would prefer arcade over realism.
     
  3. rer8

    rer8 Registered

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    I happen to agree with MartiMoose. Adding insult to injury (to game play) is that the majority of online tracks have no weather and no damage. Yes, if you drive like a maniac, your race is likely to be over early on. Sadly, the maniac generally takes one or more with him. So, what is the purpose of realistic modding, real road, weather, and scanned tracks, if the game is always played with designed cheats. I know many will never play without a heavily rubbered road or without invulnerability, but for the purist, the realism is a big part of the attraction. I would like to see online games that announce that they are to be played without the heavy rubber, no damage, and such like. I try to drive as if I have to buy the tires, and go to the hospital if I drive like a maniac. (Rant over)

    ISSI, bring on realistic weather, and real road, really!
     
  4. sg333

    sg333 Registered

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    To me, arcade is a track with an hilarious lack of grip. "Green" in RF2 is more like a track covered in dirt, as opposed to a track that hasnt rubbered in yet. IMO, "green" should be renamed "dirty track" and a slightly grippier natural track should be considered "green".
     
  5. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    The main point of real road I assume and its great benefit to a sim is to learn to drive a car on an ever changing track, add this with fuel load and tyre wear even at the accelerated rate of RR is a pretty good experiance. It just seems most people are purely hotlappers that only learn to drive in one particular track condition where the beaty of RF2 is the possiblility of constantly changing conditions.

    You take this away and then race on the drag strip it just takes away any immersion and also you learn so much more about each car if you can drive it on a changing track for longer runs. I dont see racing as just being the best hotlapper stringing together the most ultimate record pace laps, but drive each lap as fast as possible in changing conditions. Sure on a greener track you may be 3 seconds of your fastest lap but does it really matter? you may be 4 seconds faster then another guy that simply cant adapt to the changes and thats what RF2 could be if used properly.

    I understand some people may prefer it much simpler and that's fine as there are options for that, I just dont see why the majority of servers are setup this way including the official servers. Then the same people that claim RF2 is the better sim for its extra realism but simply turn it into an arcade racer defies logic to me.

    If the so called "ice handling" on a realistically rubbered track is an issue then shouldn't this be addressed? rather then dumbing down one of the main standout features for ISI. The fact that ISI set up their servers in this way and dont address the accelerated rate issue. I am really quite amazed when they should stand by their main feature I think rather then turn it into a joke as it is atm.
     
  6. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    You dont see a fully green track very often but it is a heck of a lot more likely then the condition of the majority of online tracks. Fully green is still quite driveable at a slower pace, if not then its back to the physics themselves if you feel that you need to drive only on pure rubber. There are options for preset starting tracks so no need to start completly green and the way rubber builds up the end of any longer race weekend will end up with the dragstrip anyhow.
     
  7. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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    +1 ISI please change the rate from "arcade" to realistic.

    @radar I agree with your argument but with real road preset settings and the save real road feature everyone can set it up as he wants it and with a count of xx ai in combination with a time accelerated practice session with a duration of xxx min you can build your personaly real road rubber preset.
     
  8. coops

    coops Banned

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    All race drivers drive on green tracks. They just don't drive like they stole it until they find the track has rubbered in. I find no difference with rf2 and we are all taught that we should drive to the conditions. The point of real road is to have it more life like I think that's why it is called a SIM.
     
  9. Hedlund_90

    Hedlund_90 Registered

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    Yeah I agree with you martymoose. I was complaining about this myself a few weeks ago and apparently I was the first one to ask for a greener track and everyone wanted it the other way (rubber covering the whole track).
    It does not only look stupid and takes away the nice realroad future, but it's strange that Official ISI servers are not making use of it. It's like denying their own realroad feature.

    Btw, I have noticed that the realroad rate has been slowed down with latest build (and so has the drying process in wet condition) but it's still not enough.
    But I'm enjoying the realroad feauture in my league at least. But public online, only thing people wants is to do hot-lapping, it seems.
     
  10. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    AI doesnt use perfect lines all in honestly.

    Actually my biggest complain regarding real road is the HUGE grip difference between the rubbered line, and the rest of the track. It's basically grip vs no grip, when it should be something in the middle. Surely out of the line you have less grip, but not like a recent created track... that's why you get severe understeer or oversteer if you put a tire in that zone out of the rubber, and also makes defending/overtaking very difficult out of that line, when in reality we can see even F1 drivers passing on outside or maximizing track space using non optimal lines in order to prepare an attack for the next corner/straight...
     
  11. sg333

    sg333 Registered

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    I agree, and it ties in with what I said. The track is considered very low grip/dirty on 'green', and non-rubbered in sections are almost undrivable even when the groove has built up. Its like putting a wheel on wet grass. I think we need this addressed.
     
  12. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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    Sometimes yes but if you use a track and or mod with good sertings for ai and you switch on the ai calibration (you can read about it in MarcG's Wiki post) you can reach pretty good results :)
    But thats not the point back to topic (sorry martymoose) :)
     
  13. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    Thanks, I'll take a look :)
     
  14. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    I like the accelerated rate of RR in rF2. I'd also like to see a slider for RR- from 1.0 (normal rate) to 2.0 (current, accelerated rate). Most real races are longer formats than we do as sim racers, so accelerating the rate of RR makes it so we see the changes to the track in our [shorter] race formats.

    The rubber that is down should be concentrated on the racing line, if the entire track is rubbered in from curb to curb, then there are lots of laps being run off the racing line and that is a whole different issue- that has nothing to do with accelerated RR. Properly run laps will result in a proper line rubbered in and passing becomes much more realistic because it becomes a lot harder to do when you are forced to do it on marbles or in the grey part of the road. This discourages dive bombing, kamikaze driving and blocking. Now you have to THINK about a pass and set it up- there's an idea! Racing!!!

    Rain racing is transformed with RR. When the rain stops and the track changes to wet, drying, a dry line but wet offline to dry- you really have to change your driving every lap to get the most out of your car. Once you learn about how RR is and how to drive long races with it, you begin to understand how fundamental it is and how much it changes the racing. I don't think what we were doing before was really sim racing, it was just playing racing games.
     
  15. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Exactly agree guy and a slider for RR speed from 100% sim to a much higher rate would be welcome. The issue I see with the entire track getting rubbered in is at the accelerated rate anywhere any car drives will get a big chunk of rubber. There is obviously a max limit to how much rubber can go down this means that the racing line may only need 100 passes (pure guess likely more) in order to get max grip. So then you look at the example of 20 cars on track doing 20 laps each in 5 laps using my guess rate the main line will be fully rubbered in.

    Then that wont get any grippier now every car that goes off line will do the same to the rest of the track and at an accelerated rate this will eventually rubber the entire track quite quickly and unevenly relative to the real race line as it can no longer get any more rubber and each lap will just make the offline section more rubbered.

    If the rate of rubbering was much more realistic and each car passing over a section of track only adds a little more grip, also taking into account the slip angles (though unlikely) then it may take many thousands of laps to get the max limit of real road. So then going offline even for noob drivers online will only cause a little effect as this line is still only used a much smaller percentage of the time. As the main line is still getting the most traffic this will maintain a more realistic line then we have ATM but you just cant let it reach max level or eventually the entire track will get max rubber after x amount of laps.

    In theory it should be very hard to get the max possible rubber down on the most used parts of track and unless every car is using each part of the circuit as much as the main line then there should always be most grip purely on the parts used most. If you get to max rubber on the most used sections very quickly then from that point on every other car that goes offline will simply get us closer to the dragstrip that completely kills the point of RR.

    When using an accelerated rate it may bring in the issue of a full rubbered track unless you use a limit that cant reach max grip on the main line that is for that session.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2014
  16. Bjørn

    Bjørn Registered

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    +1 on the rate being too fast, needs to be fixed. Nice idea with the slider to decide the rate accordingly to race length.

    +1 on the unrubbered parts/green parts are a bit too slippery, it should be more slippery than the racing line/ideal line, but think it's a bit too slippery.

    Rain has to be adressed as well... Road is wetting in too fast (like it's always a blast of monsoon), road is drying to fast as well.

    Real Road is a great idea and will revolutionize sim-racing but it has to be real first :)
     
  17. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    rubber doesn't come in THAT fast. One trip into the grey doesn't instantly result in rubber being put down. There's still a lot more rubber down on the line than off even in a 2 hour race (I've been in a few). Quite a few passes offline would be needed to rubber in that part of the track. Even if you manage to rubber in the outside of the racing line in corners (obviously there will be rubber down to the apex) you will still have to deal with marbles and there will still be no grip out there
     
  18. Galaga

    Galaga Banned

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    I like the slider idea too just like we have accelerated time, fuel and tire usage to simulate longer events. May not be possible however due to complexity of relationship between tire model, etc. and real road which is why
    It is accelerated to begin with but maybe when everything complete and or sychronized or whatever they are doing it might be possible but yes would be very cool if can be 1-7X like tire wear, etc.

    Also, I love green tracks and almost always start with green of course I race offline only now and I am also somewhat of a glutton for punsihment with the combos I choose.
     
  19. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    It's been accelerated for too long now, so yeah you're gonna get drag strips on pit straight....nothing we do about that apart from run different lines!

    As for being too slippery off the racing rubber then that's purely subjective, don't forget there's marbles out there and you're never have good grip that! The green part should be dirty but don't think that's in ISI engine, again grip here should depend on the asphalt....different on different tracks.
     
  20. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    For public servers, I think it is better to have grip and no damage. Leagues would be a different story all together. With leagues you know the level of skill of the drivers more or less, but public servers have to accommodate all levels of skill. I imagine that for this reason alone it is a good idea to keep the heavy rubber and no damage.
     

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