Civic

Discussion in 'ISI cars and tracks' started by Luiz De Boni, Jan 1, 2014.

  1. Luiz De Boni

    Luiz De Boni Registered

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    THANKS TIM and ISI!
    This car is great , a real pleasure to drive!
    :)
     
  2. spider

    spider Registered

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    Yes, the car is great
    I really like it.
     
  3. JABowders

    JABowders Registered

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    Agreed.
     
  4. Birddogg66

    Birddogg66 Registered

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    Sorry for some reason I am not getting the same experience as you guys are and the FFB almost seems broken on this car from where I am sitting. Did you make tweaks that I might try to better dial the ffb in? IMO the Megane is much better.
     
  5. Empty Box

    Empty Box Registered

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    It's a FWD car with FWD FFB. Ideally, you want the wheel to have some weight left in it (as in you can't just let go of the wheel and it will keep steering) but not a lot. The limit is past the point where you have the heaviest steering, but before the point you have no weight in the steering. While this isn't different from a RWD car, it becomes different when you consider your front tires - the only ones affecting FFB - are also the drive wheels. This is why if you do go over the limit of adhesion with power on you can go in circles hands free more or less as the wheel is being pointed in a direction and forced to go that way as best as it can. It's unique, it's a FWD trait and it shows. Once you get used to it, it's one of the easiest cars to feel comfortable in IMO, the FFB makes it very easy to tell if you are asking too much or too little.
     
  6. chaco

    chaco Registered

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    Ok you say this and you make the 100% correct argument but compared to even the similar class Renault FWD car this BTCC car just does not seem to have a realistic feel to me.

    If this car is 100% accurate in how the real car should feel then all I can say is well they did not pick the right car to model then. They should have chosen the BMW or some sort of RWD car and this series mod would have been a legend.

    Please ISI, I think there is a mistake in the FFB feel of this car and I am counting the days for a update.
     
  7. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    Can you describe the feel you are getting? What is the area you feel is broken?
    The Renault Clio is not really in a similar class imo, just to note.
     
  8. Daytona 675

    Daytona 675 Registered

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  9. chaco

    chaco Registered

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    Ok so I was just retesting the car. I have not been driving it for awhile and I think maybe I was too critical. The car does feel quite nice and I do love it.

    But some of the strangeness that I think I feel is when your powering out of a corner it feels like there is too much information lost. I understand that because of the way FWD physics this is theoretically correct but in a real car I think I can feel more info then in the BTCC. Perhaps it has to do with sound is much better in real life and not having the G force takes away from the information.

    Also in the transition from corner entry and exit I feel like there is too much reverse FFB going on. Again I understand the physics behind "tuck in" but I think in a real car that just happens to the car more and you don't feel it in the steering wheel so much.

    Also I was wondering that perhaps my belt driven T500RS had something to with it. Although I love the wheel, it was just not designed to handle such a realistic FWD car? and the belt can't handle the reverse effects properly that RF2 demands out of it?

    This is just off the top of my head and I hope I don't offend the designer of the car. It's far beyond my understanding of physics and racing sims for me to be truly able of criticizing. Full disclaimer.
     
  10. Guimengo

    Guimengo Guest

    I read something in another forum that may shed some light:

    Q: "I tried the demo earlier with the Civic touring car around Silverstone, while the physics and car behaviour was very good the FFB was very weird, no FFB at all when on throttle and the wheel was pulling into corners in a strange sudden way. Technically this is probably accurate being a FWD car but it translate to poor FFB on my DFGT and no connection with the track."

    A: "Eh, it's a problem with direct rack forces when using FWD cars, it was the same in rF with RealFeel. Since there's power going to the front wheels the gas pedal has a huge effect on the FFB. Accelerating, coasting, feathering the throttle, all feel different depending on whether you're going straight or cornering, and indeed how hard you're cornering, whether either of the tyres has lost traction, etc. etc..."
     
  11. chaco

    chaco Registered

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    Ok so it isn't just me or the OP that feels this way. I'm not too surprised. More surprised that some people have accepted this type of experiment with FFB. I didn't at first but am starting to warm up to it. But perhaps it can be tweaked a little in a future update.
     
  12. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    350hp with a lot of torque from a turbo, going through the front wheels. It is going to feel odd sometimes, especially if you are driving it poorly. I've seen someone who was thrashing the front tyres in every corner. Turning hard and mashing the pedal down, just wheelspinning and understeering. Which he then complained about, funny feelings and a lack of grip from the ffb as well as bad understeer.
    What most people need to tweak is how they go about driving a very high power front wheel drive car. The driving notes provided by ISI explain quite a bit, have you seen the page?
    My feel of it is that very few games have properly modelled an FF car, so it comes as a wee bit of a shock if you are used to something older. Go and drive the Wtcc cars in race07, i find them vastly different. With rf2, at least I can feel when I am right on the edge of the front tyres limits, and wheelspin too, especially with the throttle coming on mid corner.
     
  13. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    I wouldn't say it's "a problem" in a simulation. It's a problem of real FWD cars.

    Car manufacturers know how much drivers dislike when steering wheel pulls by itself, so they use a lot of measures to counter this effect. From suspension design, engine placement, differential mechanisms, electronics. Hell, Mazda even went for artificial decrease of engine torque in 1st and 2nd gear :)

    But as much as this effect is being reduced in road cars, no one bothers in racing cars. Drivers get seat of the pants feeling anyway and torque steer can actually be helpful in racing conditions - at least by requiring less strength to turn the wheel.


    And then there's us - the simracers. We need feedback but we don't have these g forces - only our steering wheel. But not all is lost - despite this FFB seems weird at first, it's actually still informative. If you think of it - we react to changes in force on wheel. So even if that force oscillates around zero, we can still feel in changing just like when it's oscillating around any other value.
    But our steering wheels may have a small deadzone around zero force. To solve this, rF2 provides a minimum FFB torque setting. This setting is individual per wheel so each one of us should set it differently. Even two seemingly identical wheels may require slightly different setting.

    I recommend playing with this setting in rF2. Try finding the biggest value, that doesn't cause oscillations when car is standing still (or creates barely noticeable oscillations).

    And then you just have to get used to this FFB feeling. It's not unrealistic or wrong, it's not an experiment. If that's the way the real car is, that's the way it's gonna be in rF2 and no one will "update" the FFB :)
     
  14. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Taken basically, that's right, and the civic is only unnatural on the steering under extremely conditions, such as when the adhesion totally tear off and the force direction is lost because a zero resistance is set.

    edit: the vehicle reminds me of a car in which the throttle cable was attached to the chassis and the car jumped back and forth by gas modulation with the foot and at the same time the movement of the motor. The modulation differences produced a funny ride. :)

    In connection with the civic I have the feeling it is lost or missing entirely what while this feeling arises under extreme conditions, otherwise the car makes very much fun and feels to me currently generally better also.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2014
  15. narcolepsy

    narcolepsy Registered

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    Seems 100% realistic. Try taking an FWD car out in the wet and give it some beans coming out of a corner; it feels identical.
     
  16. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    You will laugh, I've seen and experienced that and head-down on a tree after the steering had no more influence on the direction of travel but it was wet and me drunk. :)

    However, this is not the same, at least on a ffb wheel with the civic under dry conditions.

    edit: I know it's already very good, what I would have given it as a small child or 20 years ago to have something like rf2. That is not the point but the simulation is and I suspect this feeling is created at the tire and its contact surface and thus the patch area should mainly responsible and its connection to the FFB.

    As I said there is no drama and only under extreme conditions perceptible but my feeling of things as they are currently and on the very first day where perceived by me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2014
  17. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    I could further improve and reduce the uncomfortable effect for me by optimizing the ffb settings and setup of the vehicle ( still experimenting ), but until now not entirely eliminate. It is highly dependent on the tire tread and the effect of the torque. The load differences influence pressure to the tire and influence the effective tire patch area by increasing/decreasnig, dependet on load, and when it is accelerated in the load-free moments the steering goes crazy because the unique force direction is lost and the resistance zero.

    The transfer of unnatural strong vertical forces under acceleration during the tire slips, generated by height differences or slip stick , producing strong jolts in the steering here and sometimes pulling the wheel where it want's.
     
  18. chaco

    chaco Registered

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    Ok I see your point, not that I didn't so not understand the drawing board theory behind it already. Perhaps with racing tires and high hp that the "tuck in" reverse FFB is that strong in a real car. I can accept that.

    But I don't think that even in a real car there is that much loss of information under powering out of a corner. There is always something that gives you feel even in the wheel with a real FWD car. If there is nothing wrong with this particular sim car and no update is coming then I would have to disagree and just not expect more.

    If the development is now complete with this car and there is nothing more to progress on FFB wise with the current crop of hard wear, then I guess I would never have to buy another sim in my life for better FFB feel so long as I don't invest in more advanced hardware.

    Does a sim only need to recreate exact FFB and physics and not do anything for the end user to compensate for lack of G's? This is a curiousty that arose from me out of this discussion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2014
  19. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    've already throw the steering wheel for 4 years in the corner during my pc gaming time, due to the fact that simply many thing's could not be implemented or was I would have liked and actually the simulation had to include, and that's why I'm here because after years of developement rf2 shows the greatest potential of a vehicle simulation and even with these little things still is the best imho.

    I feel just about the best possible result, not that I would understand what of simulation and software, no, I just try to clarify my impression as consumer. If it helps someone or not is another thing. :)

    In any case for me this feels odd, but I do not think it is necessary to throw the steering wheel back in the corner since there is rf2 and it is perfectly normal not to like each car. Perhaps the limit for the current possibilitys is reached, don't know, then that is perhaps not your car but surely you can find one to your like with rf2.
     
  20. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Hi all!
    We are using this official vehicle for our championship and tomorrow's race is being held at ISI's Loch Drummond. We are using realtime weather plugin and it has been continuously raining for 2 days. The road has been wet all time.
    We have been using wet tires and front wheels last about 8 laps because they get an extremely high temperature way over 100% degrees. All drivers that have tried have commented the same thing. Rear tyres are ok with very few wear because they maintain at "low temperature".

    We have 2x tyre wear but in a dry race we typically make one pitstop using soft-hard combo for front tires and we do not change front tires.

    I just cannot understand how can water cooled tyres get over 100 degrees so easily. When getting over that temperature the latency heat to change phase of liquid water to vapour.seems not to be acccounted. In any case convection cooling from water compared to air seems to be poorly implemented. Can this be confirmed?

    Soft and mid tires are slow but show a slower wear. This is not realistic. Grooved tyres should be easierly cooled since they have much more dissipative surface.

    At least this is how I conceive it according to my experience in mould cooling with ventilated air.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     

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