Does rfactor 2 support 7.1 surround sound?

You actually don't need a soundcard for all of this!
You can get HRTF done by software. That is what CMSS3d is doing anyway.

It would actually be better if all of this was built into the sound engines themselves (then you wouldn't even need any external tool like CMSS3d and it would probably be a lot more accurate as it would have more "information" on sound waves).
To do it well, you basically would want to model sound waves and record at 2 points where the driver's ears would be. To make it perfect, you would need some parameters to specify the head shape, so that each person can tailor it individually to them, to help it sound correct.

The problem is, i cannot remember what it is is called, so maybe someone could tell me. There is definitely a free open-source one.
For now you can try Razer Surround as software for free, but there were definitely other ones - i have just forgotten them!

In fact i wouldn't recommend giving any money to creative after what they did to the sound market, basically killing Aureal and A3d dead, buying them up and sitting on their technology.
A3d was the first thing to do HRTF. Now it is in CMSS-3d but for ages it wasn't in anything.

EAX was much worse than A3d, since all you are doing with EAX is applying a "reverb profile" to a room. With A3d, the sound propagation, reflections etc. are actually based up geometry!

To be honest, i'm not even sure what advantages a soundcard gives you these days apart from slightly less white noise or audio artifacts (a cleaner signal)?
Anything else that a soundcard "does" is artificially limited to the soundcard. Creative was the champion of doing this with eax - there was no reason why that couldn't be part of the sound engine and available to anyone, soundcard or no soundcard (in fact their newer soundcards do this COMPLETELY in software).

Isn't there some kind of hack you can get to enable hardware openal EFX emulation (basically the same as EAX but running under openAL and working properly on windows vista and above) on non-creative soundcards? (See, openAL is hardly open when it requires creative cards for certain effects!).

 

Well i feel like a bit of an idiot now. So i've had this card for god knows how long and i've NEVER tried the CMSS-3D because i couldn't figure out how to get it to work. It's a bit messy to get working, didn't realise you had to set the audio output in windows to 7.1 and then in creative audio controller to 2.1 and enable CMSS-3D and untick "disable Sound Blaster enhancements" (this is all too messy, should have been much more simple) and BOOM.....CMSS-3D virtual surround in BF3 and holy cow it works amazingly. I've tried Razer Surround and it didn't really impress me (perhaps i've not set it up correctly so i'll give it another shot) in the same way CMSS-3D did...the surround sound felt so accurate and it gave the game a very palpable extra notch of realism.

I like it so much that if it turns out that the Sound Blaster Z's is not a real improvement over my current sound card and the SBX is not as good as the CMSS-3D on my current sound card, i'll stay with the old card....CMSS-3D is just sooo damn good. Shame it didn't seem to do anything for rf2 though.

Spinelli, no volume control on my keyboard but i've been looking at alternative keyboards and some have volume scroll wheels or volume knobs and that's certainly another possible route i can take.

Also, thank you for telling me about plugging directly into the sound card btw because i tried it (instead of going through my speakers first) and the audio is already noticeably crisper (a little less bass heavy), cleaner and without an underlying hiss. I absolutely love it!

I do however like ZeosPantera's suggestion of the FiiO E10 very very much. I've also read online somewhere that you cget the CMSS-3D (if you have a sound card supporting so) to work with the FiiO E10.

edit: found the link - http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the...ural-headphone-surround-sound/45#post_8109195

 

Zeos, i really want to buy the FiiO E10 but hearing a lot of eventual failures and build quality issues.

Here's one example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R600xGw-O8s

Care to weigh in?

I'm not entirely comfortable shelling out for a device that from the evidence suggests they will eventually fail. I hear nothing like this from sound cards.

 

Well I can't verify it 100% but I haven't had a failure in the months I have had it and many people still recommend it. The only issue I have had is I destroyed the line out with a massive RCA to 3.5mm adapter and super heavy cables yanking at it. (I am dumb)..

 

hmmm....surely this is an example of the not so great build quality?

I get that the sound quality is stupendous, i really do, but the potential compromise of short life expectancy over sound quality is not something i am willing to shell £70 for....perhaps too much of a gamble for something that seems out of the users control.

The Zx should be arriving today or tomorrow, so will wait and see if the ACM is a bad as they say it is.

Why can't there ever be a perfect device....oh wait....that requires a lot more $$$.

 

Really I don't think any 3.5mm adapter would have taken the amount of accidental torque I put in it. The E10 is solidly mounted under my desk and I had the Schiit Magni headphone amp plugged into the back of it with a stubby 3.5 to rca and some 0.5m stiff RCA's and I put it on the arm of my chair to get up and WHAMP>> Amp is hanging from the wires after falling off the chair .. So I don't blame the fiio for that.

 

You're welcome . The new soundcard itself should give much better quality to your headphones, especially the better your headphones are, than your current soundcard, HOWEVER, will the SBX work as well as CMSS-3D? That depends on the game, headphones, and will ultimately have to be decided upon by you and only you. I see less people complaining about the headphone 3D surround emulation results of CMSS-3D compared to the new SBX stuff, however, I have read some real positive opinions on SBX as well, so you just need to try it yourself.

Oh, and if you have a headphone mode in your soundcard options, then set it to that instead of 2.0/2.1 mode. The algorithms/calculations for CMSS-3D when in headphone mode are apparently different and optimized for general headphone use when you set the card to headphone mode instead of 2.0/2.1 mode.

Make sure you set all games (including battlefield) to either 7.1 or 5.1 mode, same with Windows. Set every single thing EVERYWHERE to 5.1/7.1 mode EXCEPT in the final link of the chain before your headphones which is your soundcard, set that to headphone mode.

Oh, and in Battlefield games don't use "Wartapes"!!! Lol. "Hi-Fi" or "Home Theatre" should be best.

It's either call Holophonic or Binaural. I think they are the same, but not 100% sure. I think it has something to do with 2 mics being used at the same time in 2 different spots to record, as the tiny directional delay timing of sounds is a large part of what our ears/brains use when determining 3D spacial differences from where sounds are coming from, or something like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA ***Listen with headphones (won't work on normal speakers), also make sure you have any surround emulation effects, eg. CMSS-3D, OFF.***

From what I read, Aureal 3D / A3D was AMAZING BACK THEN, IMAGINE IT NOW. However, EAX still had very good potential, thanks to MICROSOFT this was killed off as well. HOWEVER I HAVE HOPE as AMD has introduced some sort of hardware audio chip thing in it's new graphics cards and hopefully developers use it and we can have Aureal 3D / EAX audio stuff again.

Soundcards give a BIG jump in audio quality over motherboard audio. MUCH better signal-to-noise ratio, seperation, soundstage, definition, clearness, just much MUCH better quality audio overall in every way, and the better your speakers/headphones are, the bigger difference you'll notice, however cheap speakers and headphones will recieve very nice improvememts as well.

Yes, for older EAX games when running on post-Windows XP you can download openAL and then from the creative site, I think it's called openAL Alchemy or something? I believe you still need to set the game/Windows to 5.1, and your soundcard to headphone mode w/ CMSS-3D/3D surround emulation enabled because I believe EAX was not a 3D surround sound emulator as much as it was a sound effects and sound physics/dynamics enhancer.

Also, when using this software method, do you still need a compatible soundcard, or does this leave the soundcard 100% out of the equation allowing people with motherboard sound only to also experience it?

I DEFINITELY noticed a difference when trying FEAR 1, on my Auzentech Forte, with EAX on and off using apenAL and the Creative openAL Alchemy program. MUCH better sound dynamics going on with EAX enabled, it was a little glitchy though, with some sounds cutting in and out extremely sharply and suddenly (tried it in full 5.1 mode with 5.1 surround speakers, and also in 5.1 to soundcard-heaphone mode w/CMSS-3D), but my god the potential was enormous!

Such a shame that Microsoft killed hardware sound in post Win XP, although AMD with their new onboard graphics card sound chip thing might have something to say about that. Having said that, if hardware soundcard processing/effects (like EAX) was killed off by Microsoft post-WinXP, then how does the AMD graphics card audio chip get around this problem? How is it any different than a soundcard with it's own audio chip (example X-FI)? The whole thing is a little confusing.

 

Thx for the tip! I use the normal audio option in bf and take the optimised stereo for headphone users off.

 

Ok, i've ordered the E10 as well and both sound cards are arriving tomorrow. Will let you know my thoughts when they arrive. This will be interesting.

Here are the key factors i'm interested in when comparing.

1) Sound Quality
2) Amount of perceived (if any) sound degradation through the ACM
3) SBX Pro surround on the Z vs CMSS-3D through my old sound card and then fed back through the E10 (possible lag? we'll see)
4) Build quality

That is awesome!

 

Other than being able to use the CMSS-3D, is the soundcard pointless if getting the E10? Will the E10 be what determines the sound quality of the headphones and not the soundcard? In other words, if buying the E10, areyou then essentially paying $150 just so you can use CMSS-3D here and there?

 

The E10 won't be affected by the sound quality if routing the audio through my old sound card first (for the CMSS-3D when gaming). I believe it's the physical hardware handling the audio output that determines the resultant sound quality. Audio in digital format is going to be perfect, but the quality of the DAC and Amp on the output will determine the sound quality to the ears. To get CMSS-3D through the E10 does not requiring plugging it into the sound card via the back audio out....it's done purely through software.

edit: i may have misunderstood your question. I decided to buy both to test/compare for myself which i prefer and then i'll return one of them.

 

A sound card and the E10 don't work together because they are the same thing. (DAC+AMP) The Fiio is essentially just an external soundcard but the fact it is only stereo is what gives the fiio an advantage. For a 7.1 soundcard you need FOUR stereo dacs for 8 channels and FOUR stereo amplifiers for line outs where a stereo card needs just one of each and more can be spent on the quality of those pieces.. Then add the fact there is absolutely no software and windows just recognizes it as "USB Audio Codec" and it works.

 

If i'm understanding your post correctly....read this: http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the...ural-headphone-surround-sound/45#post_8109195

 

Yeesh that is a sketchy process.

 

No, no, no, no, no (shakes head).....This makes no sense and, for the most part, is just a convoluted mess and waste of money.....

Forget external DACs/Amps, especially for gaming. For $220 - $250 (the price of the Zx soundcard + Fiio E10 headphone DAC/Amp) or less, you can get one of ASUS'S/Creative's top of the line soundcards. Asus Essence STX / ST or it's direct competitors the Creative Soundblaster Titanium HD, or the Ti HD's new replacement the ZxR. Over and done with.

This way you will get an extremely good headphone DAC and amp, and you won't need to worry about headphone or speaker quality with these top of the line cards, trust me.

And of course, you get all the other benefits from soundcards as well like the built-in 3D surround emulation software (CMSS-3D, Dolby Headphone, or SBX), outputs for speakers, software controls/options, etc.

ASUS Essence ST / STX
Creative Soundblaster Titanium HD
Creative Soundblaster ZxR

" The ZxR is pretty much equivalent to the Xonar STX in the headphone amp department and both are pretty much the equivalent of the E09k + E17 partnership but that's just for music - for gaming the ZxR would be better due to it's surround sound features."

 

I just picked up one of these on sale for $250 (USB DAC + Headphone Amp + Digital Preamp)


http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/xda2 ..

I wasn't planning on using it for my gaming PC but if you are going to spend $250 for a soundcard to "unlock" CMSS3D AND another usb dac+amp it seems silly.

 

To used CMSS-3D through the E10, the only additional item i need is the E10 as I already have a sound card (my old one) that has CMSS-3D. Over here the E10 costs about $100 and a little less than the Z or Zx at $130-150, but i wouldn't need to spend $250 for both.

 

Alrighty....both items arrived this morning and i've been testing them out.

First up, the sound quality from both the FiiO E10 and Sound Blaster Z are pretty much on par with one another. I spent a good hour going back and forth trying to find any difference with lots of different types of songs and i felt like the Z sounded just a little tiny bit cleaner in the highs but it could very well be just in my head. All in all i would be more than happy with either one for sound quality.

The bad news....

The ACM on the Sound Blaster Zx definitely looses sound quality and makes the audio rather muddy. You can clearly hear how it dampened the detail in the plucking of guitar strings all the way up to an undesired oscillation of the high's from vocals that should not be there. Overall....ACM = Audio Corrupting Machine. I'm rather dumbfounded that sound blaster would include such a terrible accessory that you pay a premium for only to ruin the great sound quality that you pay so much for. The Sound blaster also had blisteringly high gain by default and cannot be changed (only on the ZxR...go figure) so my 50 ohm headphones on a 300 ohm output cause pain on anything higher than 20% volume. I managed to use the EQ in the SBX Pro software to lower all frequency ranges by 24db...so that's raised the volume ceiling to around 40%. This is all quite ridiculous tbh...you'd except the non premium version of the card to be used by people with normal headphones (lower ohm) hence require a lower ohm output (or at least give them the option too), but no, that is reserved for the premium card ZxR. Either an illogical or devious decision by creative.

FiiO E10....well, this isn't exactly a bad of the FiiO E10 but rather for the setup i had intended to use it with. Turns out that "What U Hear" or "System mixer" in the recording devices is simply not available for X-Fi Xtreme Audio card users in Vista, Win 7 or 8....they stopped supporting this feature in drivers, so i can't feed my old sound cards audio out into an audio in. This means i cannot route the CMSS-3D audio through to the E10. I would need to purchase another sound card that is still supported on Win 7. A real bummer because i really like the E10's volume control and it's not painfully loud on the ears by default/design.

The good news....

I had my reservations about the SBX Pro Surround vs CMSS-3D because i had watched/listened to comparisons in bf3 on youtube and CMSS-3D most definitely sounded better to me. Well, i was pleasantly surprised when i tried it in bf3 for myself and i can say that it was even better than the already impressive CMSS-3D on my X-fi xtreme audio card.

So, i've decided to keep the Sound Blaster Z and chosen to buy this Dell keyboard that had a windows media volume control knob....very cheap, brand new and only £9 (including p&p) on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251125617355&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:3160).



It's an old keyboard but it's that control knob that i'm after and people say it's pretty good.

The alternative is this powermate griffin device but it's £55...no thanks.




Anyhow, i want to say massive thank you for all your suggestions, help & advice....it's been extremely helpful!

 

Dude im glad the SBX worked well for you, glad to hear more good experiences from it as I'm thinking of upgrading my Auzentech Forte (having a hard time convincing myself, its just such a good card with quality internals, I probably wont lol).

So are you returning the Zx for a Z? I believe the Z will give you 90% the sound quality of the Zx for about 30% - 40% less in price.

I had a logitech g110 and a microsoft x4 keyboard, (got each on sale for $40), and am now using a Mad Catz Cyborg v5 or v7 or something lol (got it for $50), and I know what you mean about the volume control, it's what I used/use BY FAR the most on those keyboards, that and the mute button. Ive never even used half the functions, but the volume and mute button are constantly getting pressed.

 

Yeah, i may just swap it out for the Z OEM in fact....no red LEDs and no EMI shielding but i don't think i need it....i didn't have any static/hissing coming from my x-fi xtreme audio (when plugged in directly) and that was unshielded too.

At one point i was looking for your card but could not find any. The SB Z does sound better than my X-Fi...the sound is crisper, cleaner and more well defined. As an example you can really pick out the detail of each individual musical instrument in an orchestra much better now as they sound clearer and distinct, kind of like each instrument was recorded separately and then mixed together instead of them all sounding a bit more mashed together on the older card....if that makes any sense. Anyway, i'm really digging the sound quality.