So hows AC for you?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nazirull Safry Paijo, Nov 25, 2013.

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  1. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Oh he suddenly understands what a revelation........


    My little ray of sunshine.

    By the way, that means "you brighten my day"

    All you had to do is answer my question yes or no. As you ignore me I am not interested in your opinion.

    The answer was No obviously if you think AC historics is better you need serious help.

    UNDERSTAND THAT
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2013
  2. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    I am also amazed by this. I wouldn't say I hate AC. I still have hopes. It does some things well which I think ISI could learn from (UI and load times). I also hope that some of the overly forgiving physics are just the way the cars/tires are made. I hope that 3rd party content can get us closer to what we have with rF2. Sure AC lacks lots of stuff that rF2 has that may never make it (RealRoad, Weather, Night driving, DRIVER SWAPS, ect ect) but for me I feel it is doomed if they can't even get the physics right. Despite all this, I went to the AC forums not to bash it but to try to put some pressure on the devs to take the input lag problem serious. I don't recall making any posts there about my opinion on the physics though. But man are there some trolls on the ISI forums that very clearly hate rF2 and post 20 times a day reminding everyone of their hatred. You even see new users on the ISI forums that are here solely to market AC.
     
  3. Gonzas

    Gonzas Registered

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    are you putting pressure to devs that work (even on weekends) in order to give to the customers updates each to weeks??

    not bad.
     
  4. osella

    osella Registered

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    K Szczech and FONismo great posts :cool:
     
  5. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    I have no clue what your trying to imply here. The thread I was posting in was flagged [NO ISSUE] so clearly some pressure needed to be put on them to do something about it. Luckily there was enough people acknowledging the problem that they did listen and the problem was solved (via the new Frame Limit option) although they never put it in the build notes.
     
  6. Gonzas

    Gonzas Registered

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    Me neither, is a waste of time, I will shut up for a few years.

    Good night.
     
  7. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    K Szczech
    This is probably the best and most true post in this whole forum!

    I see it myself every day:
    People are burned out from job and went passive.
    They are no more able to think for themselfs, act for themselfs, to communicate properly and be active.
    And that´s exactly what the goverment want´s!

    Greets
    Pete
     
  8. Jerry Luis

    Jerry Luis Banned

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    View attachment 11000
     
  9. Jos

    Jos Registered

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    looks pretty similar to AC too me, lift off oversteer, or stamping too hard on brakes...
     
  10. realkman666

    realkman666 Registered

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    lol, more videos of things
     
  11. Empty Box

    Empty Box Registered

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    Spinelli.... Yea, I read your post, I'm not going to bother quoting and making this even longer.

    I'll put it this way - you yourself even says GSC breaks down like rF1 (for obvious reasons) - and guess what, that is wooden feeling to me. The engine is old, it's more or less ancient (Consider the fact it's about as old as the ORIGINAL Forza - a series on it's 5th iteration now on 3rd "generation" of hardware - how is that for perspective) I've probably sold enough copies of GSC to land myself on Reiza payroll at this point (lol! It's the one and only sim I've ever said outright BUY THIS!) - I like it, it's my favorite sim. If online would work and be populated, it would be my unquestionable go to sim for all purposes. It doesn't change the fact it's age is showing, and there is nothing Reiza can do to fight that. Compare that with something like the Howston here, taking that through the Porsche Curves you can feel the car load up, the tires deforming and even a little bit of flex in there. Those last 2 rFactor didn't even feature, and I'm pretty sure neither does GSC's flavor of the engine.

    When you move forward there are bound to be issues, that is why GSC IS so good. It's the "last of the breed" on that engine, the final evolution. rF2 is new, AC new, iRacing is "new" (in the sense of it's newest tire). It's only natural there are bugs to work out and things to be tweaked. Naturally they will all blow the doors off of the past, but only once they are allowed their time in the oven. You can let it cook in the oven, or you can eat it undercooked and risk food poisoning. There is no need to panic at all, the oven just finished preheating. You shouldn't be that hungry right now, plenty of food on teh table.

    Feel and the way certain dynamics are relayed to you the "sim driver" is hugely subjective and varied and there is no way to cover that up. Sim racing hardware, especially "the masses" not using a servo wheel and a ultra high end pedal set aren't getting the same exact experience as the real car and never will.

    Why can you take the same car, at the same track, on the same day with the same setup and use two different drivers and have one complaint of understeer and one of oversteer? Why do you get one set who hails iRacing as most realistic, rF2 as most realistic and whatever else as most realistic? I've seen guys say this car is spot on who drive that particular car, then another guy say it's off - even though they have similar experience and are driving the same car. We've all heard of the phantom adjustment the crew "made" that made the driver 3 tenths faster, right? Sometimes it really is in the mind.

    It's hard to say definitively one thing or another when so much of it comes down to hardware which often does not replicate the types of forces truly generated, on top of the fact you still go nowhere.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2013
  12. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Yes Empty Box, you make excellent points regarding the different hardware and how it affects peoples experience and perceptions of physics, handling behavior etc. It's one if the main problems that can mask A LOT of bad areas, or good areas, with the physics.

    It is very difficult, but you have to try and ignore feelings and try to analyze what the car is doing relative to your control inputs.

    Let alone different hardware, just changing visual cue settings and especially FFB settings can totally affect your perception of physics. I bet my life that if GSC not only didn't have realfeel built in, but also had non-optimized "generic" FFB settings (RFactor controller file) that it would sadly not get as much praise as it does today (with respect to Niels who I'm a fan of and worked some real good physics regardless of FFB).

    It is EXTREMELY difficult to judge physics regardless of your actual real-life physical feel from the FFB. You need to try to disconnect your feel out of the equation and try to analyze things like "car rotates as I lift brake slightly too quickly and I apply turn-in steering at the wrong time as I come off the brakes, about 20% throttle makes rear-end plant, then car starts extremely minute understeer as more lock gets applied, as steering is unwinded the car gets rear light but not actually spinning as I am at about 60% throttle just past apex, waiting just even a half-second before increasing throttle from 60% - 100% will be the difference between the rear end frustratingly sliding, and almost laughing as the rear grips so much and takes the power being sent to it with ease." Etc etc.

    Try to approach things without your "feel" involved but from a numbers/computer/engineer point of view. Once I did this, I even noticed some amazing things that even the original stock RFactor 1 cars exhibited in their physics/handling behavior that most people COMPLETELY ignored/didn't notice because of their conclusions of car handling/physics being completely clouded up and...let's face it....screwed up due to the EXTREMELY hit or miss nature of RFactor 1's stock FFB. It's extremely hard for people to get past their FFB and look at how the car is acting/reacting purely in-game regardless of the feel.

    Once you do that I promise you'll start to notice physics anomalies in cars/mods/sims that you never noticed before, and opposite as well, you'll start to realize real good physics aspects in cars/mods/sims that you never noticed before.

    Take the feel/preference equation out, you'll start noticing a crap load of bad things, but wonderful things as well, that you never noticed before because of personal perceptions and preferences clouding your judgement/analyzations/conclusions :)

    By the way......I (and I'm sure I can speak for many others on here) don't hate AC, and are not "fanboys". I have lots of fun with it :). It's just very concerning and un-encouraging when areas of physics feel "easy-ified", not only compared to other sims, but to real-life as well. We all know that Iracing, RFactor 1 based stuff, RFactor 2, Netkar Pro, sims made from Piboso, etc. etc. are all not perfect, they ALL have their issues...BUT they all have one thing in common that AC doesn't share with them; none of them have this feeling of overly accessible, too forgiving, bland and "video game-ish" physics buried in their physics/tyre models regardless of car/mod. THAT, is what I believe it really boils down to in the end.
     
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  13. Jerry Luis

    Jerry Luis Banned

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    finally...
     
  14. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    I follow the software in this area for a long time but more in the area of entertainment and many driving games are part of my history but the most intresting for consumer and persecuted by me, was ISI, and although i do not use rfactor i could see a quality already. However, the scrap of hardware and opportunities to the time were not sufficiently enough to keep using it intensive.

    Now with increasing opportunities also increases the expectations of hobbyists which than convert to consumer, and not just because of the payment in advance for some unfinished software, but also because of the better and better becoming software, which increases the overall expectations and the players and hobbyists convert to would like professionals, is what makes the thing so difficult.

    I guess only it is a misunderstanding ago, this part of ISI and also AC is an extended simulation game to play and not to view at and use as a pro tool. I assume the true simulation is another.
     
  15. thuGG

    thuGG Registered

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    Looks like it's you who didn't understand what I wrote.
     
  16. wgeuze

    wgeuze Registered

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    Some teams in F3 and F2000 etc. actually do use rFactor1 as a training tool (not necessarily rFactor pro, thats more for the high end customers who build their own vehicle models in carmaker/simulink environments). It's just a matter of how you setup the cars and make use of what the physics engine can offer.
     
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  17. Rik

    Rik Registered

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    rf1 is still better than RF2 for this lower end teams? :confused:
     
  18. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    wgeuze, intresting to know that it is enough for the purpose, but ok why not when it does the job for them. A important part is sure the hardware, the guy's have in use. I don't think they use G27's or something like that. As i'm aware of, a servo driven wheel is nothing new or special in the industry because servo driven haptic wheels existing already for a long time, just not to the public.

    Still you can see there is a pro version available, where i think the user has some deeper access to the settings and or the special support from ISI for the purpose.

    Also possible the guys keeping special things secret for the public, who knows, maybe the tires where people struggle to simulate right, or anything else. Maybe we just see the half of the possibilities.
     
  19. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Not necessarily. If you find some solution sufficient for given purpose, you may not want do do all the hard work (and money) of porting to another platform.

    Besides, you often get better results with the tool you know best.
     
  20. Rik

    Rik Registered

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    I thought at this motivation after my post. you're right. this is a plausible explanation. otherwise I see RF2 as a tool much more formative.
     
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