Also, if the turn regardless of how tight can be cornered at a high enough speed where your leaning for long enough on the outer front tire, then you're minimizing or removing any affect Ackerman would have because of the inside tire. If you're leaning on the outside tire pointing out, it's understeer, and if you're leaning on the outside tire pointing in, then it would provide oversteer. This is my reasoning for why Toe-In and Toe-Out are opposite of what's stated. Usually provide .10 to .15 positive Front Toe in my setups. If I have a course with a light of tight turns I need to get into quickly, then I'll max it out as high as it will go. Whatever I lose on straights I gain in overall corner and entry speed.
@Zim2323 Sorry, I can't follow your train of thought on that. Let me just leave it by saying, If you talk to any real-world engineer, he will agree with how the program (and article) advises. I have yet to hear of any real-world racers using toe-in on their cars. But if it works for you, by all means go for it. Best of luck to you.
Sorry, So, you're saying that in the real world, when you enter a left hand turn, all the weight is being transferred to the LF tire. Is that what you're saying? If that's the case, then this would work, because with Toe-Out the LF would be pointed outward, or IN to the turn. The whole idea of camber, tire(s) pressure, etc, is to set the tire with optimal load for optimal tire patch. In a left hand corner, load is distributed (depending on crossweight, but usually) from RF->RR->LR->LF. The LF is the least of my worries. If you're leaning on the RF on a left hand turn at speed and that tire is pointed outward away from the turn, where do you expect the car to go when it's turned outward, away from the apex? Do you expect oversteer or understeer? Forget for a moment you even have a LF tire at that point, because you could affectively setup the car and weight transfer where the LF was completely off the ground. Not saying that's ideal overall, but to me, the tire/wheel with the most load should be what you focus on, not a wheel/tire that isn't even directly factored in at turn entry. I just don't get it. Any other mechanical minds care to school me?
I will jump back in. Yes, in a left-handed turn, weight is transferred to the right side of the car making the left-side tires the least weighted tires. It does NOT make the left side tires useless... quite the opposite actually. Once you are turning and the weight is transitioning to that all important right-front tire, it quickly gets to its maximum grip level. Push it any harder (turn sharper or carry more speed) and it loses grip and you understeer. You can work all day to try to gain 1% more grip on this tire and likely fail at finding it... it is at it's limit because of all that weight transferred to it. Meanwhile, the left-front tire is under the least amount of load but is actually the one tire that you can gain the most from. If you treat your car as a tricycle now, you will always be slow. You have to keep treating it as a 4-wheeled vehicle. So, any extra grip you can gain from the inside-front tire will be worth 10X more than any extra grip you gain from the outside-front tire... and much easier to come by as well. Your focus SHOULD, in fact, be on the inside front tire. Toe has nothing to do with where you want that outside tire to be pointing, it is about where you want the INSIDE tire to be pointing since it is going around a slightly tighter radius corner than the outside tire. Maximizing the grip of that inside tire (via a combination of caster, camber, toe, ARB, and springs) is the difference from being fast and being alien-fast. I think the reason you can not grasp the importance of toe-out is because you have gotten so use to "giving up" on that inside front tire... a fatal flaw in your setup development IMHO.
I'm going to have to side with Race2Play on this toe-in deal. Take for example Nascar. These cars, except for the few road races they do, is constantly turn left. They do set the car up with some toe out. (remember this is for constant left turns). They do have to balance settings to try and have all four tires in optimum contact. They run higher springs on the right side (more or less,in order to lessen weight shift to the right side), lower ride height on left front (to help with turn in also) They try to balance between just enough toe-out to help with the turn in, against too much toe-in for top straight-run speed. You add in all the other adjustments and its a nightmare. In a way, setups for always turning one direction or another, is easier than a setup for a road race, where you have to "average out" your performance on diverse turns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZksC3wnCvaU&feature=youtu.be I think this makes my point well enough. I never discount the inside tire. I typically do run alien like speed, and I do understand how to setup a car. You're more then welcome to ask Ron Caranci, Pumbaa, Goud (SimHQ), Chad Dunbar, etc. how I run. This is why I make the points I do. If the LF ever does become a plus, then I do account for it and make those setup changes necessary. Ultimately, you're always fighting camber and only riding the rim of that inside tire anyway. I'd rather fight for the 1-2% of the outside tire with load vs .05-.1% of the inside tire with insignificant attributes accept in special circumstances. So, take it for what it is, whether it doesn't properly match real life or whatever, Toe-In DRASTICALLY helps turn in and corner speed in rF1 and rF2 simulations, regardless of what the real world counterpart may do. I will say this, if positive camber in rF1 or rF2 is actually Toe-Out, then I stand corrected, and that is the case on some mods, but ultimately, Positive (Toe-In per the definition given) is far more of a positive factor then negative/Toe-Out. EDIT: Nevermind about the video. Looks like as soon as it was posted, it was made private. Oh well. Was thermal imaging of the front tires of an F1 car at speed. It was showing real time thermal overlay of the heat generated on the tires down the straights and through the turns.
Something similar have had cost my account on WMD. It was about ridiclous high toe out on gumpert and the same storry how the wheels should take in to account while cornering with such toe settings. I could add to it but i learned something about the www and forums with many self called engineers who know things better than real engineers, so i keep me out but you are not totally off.
Personally I have always run anywhere from .2 to .4 toe-out on all my setups. All real race car engineers I have spoken with use a few degrees of toe-out. All information I can find in print and online recommends toe-out for racing applications. All the researched I have gathered over the years, from real-world engineers, continues to back up toe-out as the norm for race car setups. You, zim2323, happen to be the first person that claims using toe-in on his setups. An odd choice, but if it works for you then you should continue to use it, but the Setup Wizard program will continue to give recommendations based on real-world theory from real-world race engineers. I hope you will understand. The following quotes come from the first Google search page when searching "toe in racing" http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html http://en.intraxracing.nl/techniek/camber,-caster,-toe-intoe-out/ http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...and-Handling-Part-Seven--Tuning-your-Toe.aspx http://www.stockcarracing.com/tipstricks/camber_caster_toe_setup/ It is that advice, the industry standard, that Setup Wizard will continue to offer the user.
Where is me suggesting something diff ? I just said something on because the guy minds how the wheels should take in to account while cornering The guy above my post is talking about wheel load and how he imagine the dynamics in regards to toe. I either said you nore he is right or wrong.
@speed1 My post was not directed at you. Zim2323 and I have been having a conversation on this subject for the past two days.
@Race2Play All of this is why I would like to see a graphical representation of how the wheels are oriented, be it toe, camber, caster, etc, so I know for a FACT that positive Toe is either Toe-In or Toe-Out, based on that number. For all I know, Positive numbers in rF1 and rF2 really are Toe-Out and I really do have everything backwards. Some clarification on that would be much appreciated by ISI. That said, just playing through the weight transfer, camber, and compression of the outside wheel on corner entry, I refuse to believe that for the way Toe-Out works has any positive turn in affect what so ever. Forget what you read and hear, play it through in your mind. If you hit a left hand turn hard enough and roll over on the RF and the LF comes off the groun, how could a Toe-Out condition, with the RF wheel/tire not turning as much into the turn ever yield better turning. I've asked you this several times and have yet to hear you answer or speak to that directly. How is that possible? I am unable to find any scenario where it would. However, a Toe-In affect where you lean over on the RF, where the wheel is already turned more into the turn would help turn in. I wish that video was viewable because you could see from the real time thermal spread on the tire that on the straights, only the inside edge created any heat, and when the car hit a turn, literally only the outside tire showed any thermal heat, meaning that was the only tire "working". Again, yes I agree there are situations where the inside tire, depending on corner, speed, etc. would change this, but it was clear which tire was critical in that video. Maybe there's something I'm missing with all this, but just thinking through the mechanics of weight distribution, camber on the LF preventing any usable tire patch, etc, I just don't understand how Toe-Out would be the norm.
You do not need toe to adjust the angle of the outside wheel, that is what your steering wheel is for. Set the angle of your outside wheel with the steering wheel then think of where your inside wheel is facing. With toe-in, it is facing a slightly larger radius than the outside wheel... even though it has a tighter radius to travel. Toe-out would allow you to still set your outside wheel angle with the steering wheel, an then your inside wheel is turning at an even more severe angle, which is great considering it is traveling a tighter radius corner. I know you keep talking about the inside wheel "coming off the ground" to validate your argument. The fact is, that simply does not happen. The amount of body roll your car must go through to make that happen would mean you are driving a 1970's Cadillac raised up to be a 4X4, not a race car. No matter what, your inside-front tire will still be in contact with the track surface, offering some level of grip. The more grip it can supply to the front end of your car, the more it will help your entire front end grip. That is simple physics. While you are content to believe, and outright refuse to believe otherwise, that your car turns into a tricycle in the corners and that inside front wheel serves no purpose in a corner... there is no way we could teach that as valid setup advice as it is simply incorrect. I know it can not be easy to accept this after your strong statements back on page #1 of how wrong the article is, but you simply can not argue with every other race car engineer in the world. It is loud and clear; Toe-out is used for racing applications to better your turn-in capabilities. That is fact and what the SetupFu.com articles and the Setup Wizard program preaches. It is undeniably true.
Zim2323: Toe in/out has nothing to do with ackerman, that is built into the steering geometry. The effect of STATIC toe settings are largely transient and almost negligible steady state. Static toe out on the front provides better turn in as the inside tire is able to provide cornering force very quickly BEFORE weight transfer takes effect. If you want dynamic toe settings you need to look at bump steer in the suspension geometry, good luck with that one.
Thanks for all your input and discussion here Race2Play. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this, but my whole reasoning here is to figure out if I'm wrong. Everything points to the fact that I am. So, with that, I have to try and figure out what I'm doing wrong, or how I'm calculating wrong. It's been working for me, so maybe I'm seeing something differently then it is. Anyways, thanks again, and wish you and your program the best of luck. I'm still hoping to purchase the product, but just had a baby so money is tight. Even $20 is hard to come by, so once things get caught up, I'm hoping I can still find this at a discount. Natureboy and others, I'm back to the books/track and trying to figure out what I'm missing. Thanks again to all for your help!
you are not totally incorrect, front toe in can be faster for long duration high speed turns because of less scrub form the inside tire. But the benefit is extremely small compared to the benefit gained from a positive turn in due to toe out because toe out provides grip that is only very slightly reduced by weight transfer. So if you are: skid pad testing - toe in front slalom testing - toe out front play with toe in on front for ovals where the car is almost always turning - tri-oval or where corner entry is very banked, could provide a tenth or so. On modern car with very good suspension geometry, toe out rear is also something worthy of trying.
I see thread is old, just couldn't find anything so far about that so will ask here: 1. Wich Bump/Rebound should i enter into SetupFu Slow or Fast? 2. How to calculate Corner weight? Divide front/rear weight distribiution by two and calculate from total car weight? or i can get that data from somewhere else? 3. It is a bit unclear what units that app is using ie. Tires need to convert from kPa to PSI, what about track lenght :km or miles?
Hi Zonder, 1) Slow bump and rebound 2) The sim should tell you the weight of each corner of the car in the setup screen 3) You may use any unit of measure you wish, just be consistent with which ever you choose (just do not mix and match kPa vs PSI, kg vs lbs, mile vs km, etc)
I cant find corner weight in the setup screen. Can u make a screenshot of it? I checked many times. Verstuurd van mijn GT-I9100 met Tapatalk
