Zero motion blur, amazing!!!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spinelli, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. Axeslayer

    Axeslayer Registered

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    If I just played games on the computer I probably would try it but I use the computer for art and the big problem with LCD monitors is that a monitor that is good for art is bad for gamming and vice versa . If I had room to fix up two monitors that would be a good way to go . I have read that OLED monitors should be coming out this year so I will wait and see that comes out , have no real need to change my monitor until I see one that I like .
     
  2. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Nothing to even argue about here, this guy is clearly just being a clown. From knowing it all in the input lag thread, to now all of a sudden saying the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard when it comes to monitors, clearly just wanting to be a giant troll.

    Go read any article from wether it be professional, amateur, 10 years ago, 1 month ago, pc monitors, televisions, gamers, move watchers, etc etc etc, etc etc etc. Lcds beat crts in certain areas, but loose out in other areas. Crts are kown for their crystal clear motion clarity, lcds suffer from ghosting/trailing/artifacting, anything on the screen becomes blurry on fast movements. If I am moving my mouse around in a first person shooter, while trying to focus on a guy that I am aiming at, you will notice it's all blurred until all motion stops, I mean I dont really know how else to explain this. You were the professional scientific know it all in the input lag thread, yet now u are saying that one of the fundamental downsides of a traditional LCD monitor is a good thing and more realistic?

    So prad.de and the 100s of professionals out there that do testing have ll got it wrong, the blurring is a good thing? All the companies should stop their 1 ms monitors and go back to 5-10 ms pixel response time because watching a tail appear behind a football when you are watchin a game is more realistic?? LOL

    ACTUALLY, why don't you just simply research it. Go to google, and research it. The # of websites and videos you will probably get explaining all this to you will probably be in the BILLIONS, literally.




    Just 2 out of millions and millions of examples on the web.....

    "In CounterStrike I completely lost sight of my target if I turned quickly, so I had to rely on muscle memory to aim. Also if I move something across the screen, like dragging a window, then the content of that window (text) becomes illegible. Meanwhile, if I do the same thing on a CRT I can read the document while I drag it."

    "They all produce some amount of motion blur. It is a limitation of the technology and they can't lower the response times beyond a point. How noticeable that blur actually is depends on the user, the type of game and the framerate.

    I can see it easily in anything with smooth and slow camera turning motions. This includes most space sims and some third person shooters.

    Don't worry, a few years will pass and LCD/Plasma will be gone, OLED or Laser will kill them and be far better than anything that's come before, even the venerable CRT."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2013
  3. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    DrR1pper i think you need to have as close as fps=hz as you can.

    Frok AVS forum (great forum, tons of knowledgeable people here)

    "Yes, judder needs to be managed. You need fps=Hz. LightBoost is only supported at 100Hz through 120Hz. So you need to run fps=Hz, such as 100fps@100Hz, or 120fps@120Hz. No judder, no motion blur, no ghosting, no coronas, no plasma noise, no RTC overshoots (especially on newer 1ms monitors. This is because both pixel persistence and RTC overshoots are kept in total darkness, and strobe occurs when pixel transitions are finished). As a result, it looks like CRT motion. The primary picture quality problem is TN LCD color quality and black level, but these panels have the most "perfect CRT motion" effect of any panel ever made; even beating out plasma (due to 5ms red/green phosphor decay)."

    I mean how much more proof do i gotta link to and copy and paste? The hardforum link on my first post is almost 40 pages long, and FULL of people, including many hardcore CRT lovers, with their jaws dropped in amazement.
     
  4. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Yup good point, if you are into artistic stuff or media then a very good gaming monitir wont be good as they have bad colour accuracy, black levels, etc etc compared to slow ips or s-pva panel monitors, let alone a good crt. Thats why OLED is going to be awesome, it will have almost all of the plusses of crt and lcd combined in 1. Unfortunately many OLEDs still will use the "sample and hold" technique that traditional lcds use, which then will not improve motion imaging, however if they make stroboscopic OLEDs (strobing), then OH MYYYY :).

    "Correct. Some Crystal LED's and OLED's are strobe-driven, while other OLED's are sample-and-hold. Unfortunately, the "sample-and-hold" type OLED's are the same as LCD in motion blur. That's why the Sony Vita OLED is no better than a fast LCD (1ms/2ms) in motion blur, even though the OLED colors are so much better.

    The expensive Sony Crystal LED prototype does strobe from what I heard -- so you'll get really good motion on that one (as long as the strobe lengths are <2ms, similiar to the illumination period of a medium-persistence CRT phosphor, and much better than plasma phosphor)"
     
  5. Novis

    Novis Registered

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    Lol, yeah. You still believe that there is no refresh time on a LCD? Funny you brought that up, but I guess this thread is quite similar. I'm surprised that you fail again on the most elementary stuff in video.
     
  6. Novis

    Novis Registered

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    I certainly agree with you that with higher frame rate the need for motion blur decrease. Where is the detectable limit? In air force studies pilots have been able to pick out individual frames at over 200 fps with amazing detail. Human vision is complex to say the least.

    That you can see a difference is just a proof that 60 Hz is not enough to create fluid motion without motion blur. 120 Hz is better but is it enough? Will we rave about our next 240 Hz monitors? Motion blur is simply used to compensate when the frame rate is not enough.

    I certainly agree that images look sharper without motion blur. I mean it not called blur without a reason. Some types of game do definitely favor the better sharpness without blur. In FPS type of games you need precision in aiming and you can trade in some of the fluid motion for better result. If you like to play scrolling text examples you would like to have less blur also. When wanting fluid video reasonable blur can be a good thing. What I say is that simply assuming that blur is always bad is fooling yourself.
     
  7. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    KeiKei, how did you install the EDID override on windows 7?
     
  8. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Updated info about this issue. Probably monitor switches LightBoost off when computer is shut down (monitor goes standby for longer period which may be the very reason). So I have to enable 2D LightBoost manually when computer has been shut down. I'm using following procedure:

    1. Launch nVidia Control Panel
    2. Go to "Stereoscopic 3D" -> "Set up stereoscopic 3D"
    3. Tick "Enable stereoscopic 3D"
    4. Select "Asus 120 Hz 3D LCD" from drop-down list "Stereoscopic 3D display type"
    5. Press button "Apply"
    6. Press button "Test stereoscopic 3D..."
    7. Press button "Launch Test Application" (monitor should switch to LightBoost mode)
    8. Press Ctrl+T key combination to switch stereoscopic 3D off (I have to keep keys down for a second or so because test app is so unresponsive)
    9. Press Esc key to exit test application (monitor should now be considerably dimmer because of LightBoost)
    10. Press button "Close" to exit dialog window
    11. Untick "Enable stereoscopic 3D"
    12. Press button "Apply"
    13. Exit nVidia Control Panel

    Would be nice to have some small app in system tray for switching 2D LightBoost on/off. Or at least have 2D LightBoost set automatically on when computer starts. Desktop usage would be better without LightBoost (cannot see the flickering but sense it :)) so app for switching would be the best solution.

    It's also good idea to calibrate colors when LightBoost is on (only needed to be done once). On Windows 7 go to Control Panel, type calibrate into search field and click "Calibrate display colors".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2013
  9. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Download inf-file so that it will be located for example:

    C:\Misc\Asus-VG278H-3D-Monitor-EDID-override.inf

    1. Go to Device Manager and open node "Monitors"
    2. Right-click on display and click "Properties"
    3. Switch to "Driver" tab
    4. Press button "Update Driver..."
    5. Click "Browse my computer for driver software"
    6. Click "Let me pick from a list of device drivers on my computer"
    7. Press button "Have Disk..."
    8. Press button "Browse...", browse to location of inf-file, select inf-file and press "Open"
    9. Press button "OK"
    10. Select model "Asus VG278 (ACI27F8 EDID Override)" (or something like that)
    11. Press button "Next" and fake monitor driver should be installed
     
  10. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Agreed. Also don't know where the tipping point is. As you said it probably depends on many factors. Personally I feel 120 Hz is enough so that blurring is not needed anymore.

    In racing simulation for example I don't think it matters that much whether to use LightBoost or not because horizontal panning is generally so slow. But on some first-person shooters it's for sure completely different thing. The reason why I use it is because against all odds on this particular Asus model LightBoost reduces input lag. It also provides perfect smoothness by 24 less frames per second when compared to 144 Hz so I'm able to turn some graphics settings on like HDR. Also motion clarity is little bit better because of backlight strobing. However there's some ghosting visible because of so called crosstalking so in some sense image quality isn't as good as it is without LightBoost on this particular 2 ms monitor.
     
  11. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Thanks KeiKei. Been testing all day with the monitor. I'm both impressed and depressed by it. Impressed by absence of motion blur (until things are moving so fast that it has nothing to do with me being unable to focus on something, especially in fps if you get what i mean ;))

    Downside is how much dimmer the monitor has to be as a result of the strobe effect limiting the amount of time the backlighting is enabled which averages a lower cd/m2 which is something i really appreciate about my other monitor. Colour reproduction is ok but the TN panel of my other display is for sure better with viewing angles and the slight changes in colour to the bottom and top band of the display. Not a problem when in non lightboost mode but mildly apparent when on the desktop when in lightboost mode but totally unnoticeable when in-game. Despite the lower brightness which does make it feel as if the display is a little less sharp, the total absence of any motion blur at all somehow negates this "feeling" of unsharpness. It's really strange and difficulty to explain in words because it's sort of a paradox when using it in lightboost. You hate it and feels somewhat unsharp when sitting still but then in motion eveything (i tested this in bf3 -> wow) moving is just crystal clear no mater how caotic the motion picture is be it from my rapid mouse movements or the other players or both.

    Lastly, the hack is starting to peeve me off. To get the lightboost to enable i have to have 3D enabled ticked and then go into a game. But then the performance becomes so ****ty that sometimes it just freezes the pc i have to hard restart it. Sometimes it's just jugging away as if really low fps and very long stutters (which you can also hear in the audio as it's pauses for a second then plays then pauses then plays...etc) at the start of the loading and i must ctrl+T to turn of 3D but most times this has to be held like 30 times before the damned 3D can be turned off. I had task manager opened in the background so after i could check the CPU usage and during this time of freezing the cpu cores are at 100%...completely bottlenecked. It makes no sense why this is happening unless due to the nature of the hack's employed. Any ideas?

    Need to do more testing and with rf2 next. Also need to check 144, 120 and 60hz on this asus and then back to my old 60hz display.

    I'm not totally convinced on whether to keep or not tbh but i'm not going to make a final decision just yet...must test more.
     
  12. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    I was doing some more tests but with pixperan and the same thing happened with the slowing down of the computer only this time it was using only 1 core at 100%. This added a sever lagginess to the interactions with my mouse, very much like it was with BF3 but not as good (i.e. it never froze completely) and when this happens with bf3 the cpu goes up to 100% on all 4 cores.

    Here's a pic of before and after and check out the process that's taxing the cpu...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Yes that can't be avoided. Did you try increasing contrast when on LightBoost? It makes things bit brighter.

    Sure would like to see some app to switch LightBoost off outside games. In desktop usage it indeed makes things bit unsharp and personally don't like the feeling because I can sense the strobing. It causes some strain to my eyes.

    I'd bet it's because of trying to process signals from the missing IR-transmitter. :) Did you try my method at post #48? It makes difference when game (at least rF2) is launched only after the 3D is unticked from nVidia Control Panel.

    My humble opinions about other refresh rates with this particular monitor are:

    • 120 Hz regular: Input lag is just a little bit too high for my personal requirements for simracing. Other than that very good for simracing
    • 144 Hz regular: Very good for simracing. Input lag is well below acceptable level. Downside is that requires 144 FPS from game engine
    • 120 Hz LightBoost: Best for simracing. Lowest input lag. Only require 120 FPS from game engine. Downside little ghosting


    I don't find it's too dim with LightBoost. Probably being able to set HDR back on compensates the dimming in my case. Ghosting caused by LightBoost doesn't bother me when racing but wouldn't be so sure if that would be the case on some first-person shooter. How did you feel about it when playing BF3?

    If (when) rF2 is optimized in the future and/or I'm able to get better hardware then I might even go back to 144 Hz regular. I mean the difference in input lag isn't that much and would get rid of the little ghosting. Or maybe in time I get accustomed to perfect motion clarity and lowest input lag so actually can't go back to 144 hz regular. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2013
  14. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Hey one thing came onto my mind. Make sure Windows and game are using exactly same screen resolution and refresh rate. Otherwise it could switch off the LightBoost when entering the game and hence wouldn't work without keeping the 3D ticked at nVidia Control Panel. Let me know if it's the case.
     
  15. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    sorry, i do then turn if off after but sometimes found that unticking the 3D first before going into the game turns off lightboost. When this happened, the only way to get it to work like you said was to reboot....strange problem there.
     
  16. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Yeah, i have it on highest and it helped but only so much. It's not terrible it's just....when you've been using something better (with respect to brightness) it's hard to accept anything that is less.



    You and me both to the app but i don't see any physical strobing but perhaps i can feel it but only just...may actually explain why in-game feels a little un-sharp/blurry to me and not because of the reduced brightness because when you start to move about the image feels crystal clear of any motion blur. But then again this clarity of any motion blur whilst moving could be masking the subtlety of the very subtle strobing that caused this slight hint of unsharpness. To all those reading btw, i just want to make clear that this "unsharpness" quality, whenever i've said it, is not that strong but it's only a kind of under-the-skin sensation/feeling if that makes sense.



    Good guess....that would make a lot of sense if it is indeed the case. Also, are you having this same issue and severity as I described if you don't untick 3D before loading up a game? (bare in mind my only two experiences so far have been bf3 and PixPerAn.)

    I see the ghosting you speak off in pixperan most clearly and it's the same length as with non lightboost motion blur trailing length of the object's moving. However, i have not noticed it in game and i will have to pay attention to try and look for it next time(s). What do you prefer? The ghosting or the motion blur of 144? How much of a benefit is the absence of motion blur really to your gaming so far?


    I'm certainly warming up to it but it's a double edged sword of sorts. With a dimmer brightness it means the contrast is affected and to correct for this i must increasing the gamma (since the display brightness is maxed out and contrast can't be more than 85-90 or else the colours are screwed up) in the nvidia control panel to 1.5-1.6 to bring back the contrast to suitable levels (so i can tell there is a difference between the darkest grey and black - really important in games like bf3 where people can be so hard to see in a dark room).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2013
  17. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    I'm the author of the LightBoost HOWTO at www.blurbusters.com/zero-motion-blur/lightboost, and the creator of the YouTube High Speed Video of LightBoost bypassing pixel persistence.



    I have determined that LightBoost adds input lag. However, the faster reaction time (easier to see enemies without motion blur -- less human brain lag) reduces human brain lag so much, that you actually gain a competitive advantage that outweighs the input lag. That's why some people like me and you are able to play so much better, and score better points.

    These are example of areas that benefit from eliminating motion blur:
    -- Fast 180-degree flick turns in FPS shooting.
    -- Shooting while turning, without stopping turning (easier on CRT or LightBoost)
    -- Close-up strafing, especially circle strafing
    -- Running while looking at the ground (e.g. hunting for tiny objects quickly).
    -- Identifying multiple far-away enemies or small targets, while turning fast
    -- Playing fast characters such as "Scout" in Team Fortress 2
    -- High-speed low passes, such as low helicoptor flybys in Battlefield 3, you aim better.

    For people who have gameplay styles in fast-action video games, such people can gain a massive competitive advantage during fast-motion activities, because you react faster. Without motion blur, enemies are easier to identify while you're still in fast motion. Even out of the corner of your eyes, even before you stop moving. Without motion blur, fast panning motion look as perfectly sharp as being stationary -- LightBoost measured 92% sharper motion than a 60 Hz LCD -- which yields a high-definition-in-motion experience when you play with an impulse driven display like CRT or LightBoost. As a result, there are several gamers (with certain game play styles) who gain a lot more frags when gaming with LightBoost.
     
  18. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    I own both the ASUS VG278H and the BENQ XL2411T. There is no LightBoost double image effect on the BENQ XL2411T or ASUS VG248QE. Also, someone on OCN has both the VG278H and VG278HE, he remarked the VG278HE was much worse than the VG278H for the after-image effect. (I was surprised to hear that).

    There's a very faint afterimage effect (not blurred, but like a faint "sharp ghost") on the ASUS VG278HE, although it's better on the ASUS VG278H.

    Given how much vastly superior the new 1ms panels are for LightBoost operation (lack of after images), I highly recommend either the BENQ XL2411T or the ASUS VG248QE. Also, 24" TN panels tend to have better image quality than 27" TN panels. I do not recommend the ASUS VG278HE, unless you really do prefer the bigger 27" size. That said, the LightBoost zero motion blur effect does indeed redeem many of these TN monitors. No coronas, no ghosting, no blur, no afterimages on my BENQ XL2411T.

    Based on my and a few other people's testing:

    BENQ XL2411T -- BEST -- near perfect motion (virtually no afterimages)
    ASUS VG248QE -- BEST -- near perfect motion (virtually no afterimages)
    ASUS VG278H -- BETTER -- excellent motion, some afterimage
    ASUS VG278HE -- GOOD -- has an afterimage
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2013
  19. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    hmmm....that description sounds right about the "E" version i have. Wish i had the non E version to see for myself. Do you have a link to any more info from people who are saying this and also what are you experiencing on your non E version against what you hear of the E?

    Also are you saying that there are other reasons the image quality is better on 24" vs 27" displays besides the high pixel density for the same resolution on 24"?

    Lastly, what is your opinion of the BENQ XL2411T vs ASUS VG278H experience? anything different/better you can tell from either or beside high pixel density on the 24"?


    @ KeiKei: I just tried you method of turning off 3D before going into rfactor 2 and it turned off the lightboost when i go in-game. Then i try to quit and restart the game to get it working with lightboost and i find that lightboost automatically returns on when going back to desktop. The only way for me to get it working is to leave 3D ticked and ctrl+T it off when the game has started.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2013
  20. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    I've now updated my LightBoost HOWTO.
    (Note to moderators: Need to see if my link is approved; it's held in moderation)

    Instructions on installing a monitor INF file
    Install this INF file via Device Manager, then reboot.
    Detailed instructions: First, right-click this INF file in File Explorer and select “Install”. Next, go to Device Manager and right-click your monitor, select “Update Driver Software”, then “Browser my computer…”, then “Let me pick…”, then disable “Show compatible hardware”, then select the “EDID Override” from manufacturer ASUS (even if you don’t have ASUS), and then reboot.
    IMPORTANT (Windows 8 specific): If you’re installing under Windows 8, follow these instructions to disable driver signature enforcement before installing this INF file. The INF file is installed via right-clicking the monitor in Control Panel -> Device Manager, and updating its driver.

    New better INF file coming soon
    A new INF file is coming this weekend that re-enables 144 Hz (non-LightBoost). This will allow easy switching between LightBoost and non-LightBoost simply by switching between 120 Hz and 144 Hz. (On monitors that support 144 Hz.)
     

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