Thrustmaster t500 with rfactor 2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Turfman666, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. Voltaic

    Voltaic Registered

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    I was having a double (up) shift issue with my T500RS. I contacted TM and received the repair kit in less than a week. I am must impressed with their services, as good as Logitech's (so far)
     
  2. Sk1dmarks

    Sk1dmarks Registered

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    I just discovered something that disappointed me. If you want no clipping with the T500RS, you have to set ALL sliders to 60% (or less). When driving with the pedal plugin, I saw the ffb meter moving up and down, almost clipping, but I couldn't feel anything in the wheel. Only when setting everything to 60% I could feel everything the meter was showing. A bit of a let-down, considering the fact that I used to set the ingame ffb for the ISI Corvette to 1.5 to get some joy out of the wheel. I like fighting with my car. :)
    In fact, when I got my wheel, I always thought I had a bad unit because it wasn't as strong as I hoped for, although it does exactly what this video does when raised all sliders to 100%: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjhVBqm4Dtc Do I have a bad unit, or am I just stronger than the average simdriver? :)
     
  3. Paul_Ceglia

    Paul_Ceglia Registered

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    Just finished up with my first stint with t500 and I have to say it is better than the TX so far. It is stronger and faster @ 60% than the TX @ 100%. It is not as smooth as the TX but when Im racing I don't notice it at all. Upon first impressions during unboxing I was impressed more with the T500 than the TX. TX to me looks toyish as the T500 looks less toyish...lol ;). The fan is louder in the TX although the the T500 isn't much lower in the db department either but it is lower. Forces in game with T500 are more precise than the TX I had fun with both wheels but more so with the T500. The TX had a high frequency vibration when turning and forces where being applied, I could feel it in the wheel and it was annoying (this could just be my wheel). I recently had a calibration problem where the wheel was calcing to the left by 2 degrees, it turns out it was the weight of my momo or something else entirely idk but when I took the wheel off and let it calibrate it would hold on center, than I would put my wheel on and be off to the races. The T500 wants to kill and I love it just like a race car would want to kill me as well. I ran the BES mode with it for now I want to try the vintage F1 with it next being that they have the best FFB ever! If you have questions please ask!
     
  4. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Mine does the same as the video.

    Tbh, i don't completely understand what it is your saying. Changing the various strength sliders in the Thrusmaster control panel should not affect the ffb clipping issue in rf2. Clipping is set by software in-game and so you have to set the ingame ffb setting to at least 0.7-0.8 to avoid clipping in most normal race situations.

    Set the T500 control panel forces to 100% for the Overall strength, Constant & Periodic gain settings. Spring and Damper to 0%. Auto-center to "by the game". In rf2 set ffb to 0.6 to start with and you can increase or decrease to your liking but at 0.6 you should experience absolutely no clipping...unless you crash.

    What was your previous wheel?

    Impossible for anyone here to answer......Do you think you're stronger than the average simdriver? lol
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2014
  5. ferlob

    ferlob Registered

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    Hi!
    Can someone explain me what parameter I need to change (ffb) to get the wheel trembling when I start the engine?
    In rF1 my T500 do it but in rF2 not.
     
  6. Sk1dmarks

    Sk1dmarks Registered

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    First of all: something seemed to be wrong with the driver. The overall ffb should've been 60%, but it felt like 100%. After unplugging the wheel everything was alright and there was no need to lower the other sliders. (Spring was already 0% and damper 20%.)
    About clipping: it has been proven that an overall ffb setting above 60% does cause clipping as 60% is the real 100% if you compare it to the Logitech driver. (My previous wheel is a G25.) And because the ffb motor cannot produce more than 100% of torque, it will only raise the softer effects.

    About the question of being stronger: I asked that because I read everywhere how strong the ffb of the T500RS was. :) Some people were even claiming it was almost impossible to drive on the higher ffb setting. It really raised my expectations.
    I just tried out your settings and set the ingame ffb to 0.9 which is mathematically the same as my setting. Lower than 0.9 is just too low for my taste (as I can drive the Corvette with 1 hand at 0.6), but you're right: there's no clipping at 0.6. Anyhow, apparently I do not have a faulty unit as I read somewhere that the T500RS produces (only) about twice as much torque as the G27, what corresponds to my own perception. :)
    The T500RS sure isn't a bad wheel. On the contrary. It was worth its money. I just hoped it would be a bit stronger. DrR1pper, thanks for answering my post! I really appreciate that.
     
  7. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    As I said in another part of the forum, if something look wrong with your wheel, try a different USB port, it appear that not all behave the same, this was true both for my PC and for my brother's PC (with logitech wheels, a DFP and DFGT).
     
  8. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    I'm just really puzzled by your experiences Sk1dmarks. I had a g25 and went to a CSR-Elite and that felt stronger in torque but not quite doubled and i then went from a CSR-elite to a T500 and that was double the torque.

    I've just done some digging around and if the numbers are correct, the G25 has a 1:16 gear ratio and a torque value of 24 mNm per motor and the T500 has a gear ratio of 1:20 (but these values are from word of mouth only...i can't find the motors used in the g25 to find the official technical spec or the official gear ratio's). Torque values are 48 mNm (combined) in the g25 and 150 mNm in the T500. Factor in the gear ratio difference and that raises (or lowers the T500 depending on how you view it) the g25 torque to 60 mNm relative to the T500's 150 mNm. That's only a 2.5x difference. I don't have values for the G25's instantaneous/startup torque but i do for the T500.

    150 mNm peak rated continuous and 640 mNm instantaneous/startup torque.

    Factor in the 1:20 gear ratio...

    3 Nm continuous and 12.8 Nm instantaneous.

    14cm rim radius...

    21.4 Newton (2.2 kg) continuous and 91.4 Newton (9.3 kg) instantaneous.

    Resisting/holding 2.2 kg continuous is not going to be a problem for most people but it would become a test of endurance if it remained so for some time but there's never a moment in a sim where your holding a constant force like that for extended periods of time. The 9.3 kg instantaneous is the interesting value because if you have rapid oscillations then with each reversal of direction there is an initial 9.3 kg of weight thrown in with each change of direction. I've tried driving the 60's F1 at spa with 100% ffb (ingame and TM control panel) and my arms were tired after the first lap and wanted to fall off completely by lap 2 or 3. The massive changes in ffb direction had me violently fighting the wheel every moment around the track. I simply would not be able to complete a lap at race pace around spa with a single arm. I wouldn't have the strength to fight the wheel and be precise enough to survive a single lap. If i use 0.6-0.7, only then do i have a chance of completing a lap with a single hand on the wheel.

    how does that match up with your own experiences?
     
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  9. Sk1dmarks

    Sk1dmarks Registered

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    DrR1pper, it all makes perfectly sense now! I didn't know there is a difference between continuous and instantaneous torque. When driving the Corvette smoothly I don't have any problems with driving for 1 hour straight, but when I start up a Sega Model 3 emulator and play Daytona USA 2 the wheel becomes a brutal beast, just like when you drive the 60's F1.
    Thanks for describing the feel of your wheel! Now I truly know there's nothing wrong with mine, aside from the rattling sound it sometimes makes, usually when steering to the right.
     
  10. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Glad to hear it. :)

    To put things in perspective, a bodnar has 16 Nm constant but is a 1:1 gear ratio (direct drive) and if using the same rim radius that's 114 Newtons or 11.6kg!. That's 2kg more than the instantaneous on the t500. The other major difference with the bodnar is the motor torque output is linear which would imply the 16 Nm is both the constant and instananeous/startup torque value. This is very interesting because it means on the t500 you are kind of getting tiny tiny short glimpse (but still not really, lol) of the bodnar when the t500 is oscillating at moderate frequency with maximum torque.

    But now imagine if it that alternating force were constant force at 11.6 kg (i.e. for however long each direction of change lasts for it's at a steady-state of 11.6 kg). But were not finished there. The bodnar wheel goes up to 10,000 RPM. Factor in the 1:20 transmission ratio of the T500 and it lowers the RPM from the motor to the steering wheel, 3200 RPM to 160 RPM (i just downloaded that T500 video from youtube and used sony vegas to measure the rpm to the ms and it measured 186 RPM....so it's fair to assume the 1:20 gear ratio is pretty darn close/accurate.)

    So, the power output from the Bodnar (if we compare the max constant torque for each only) is about 283x higher. LOL. Do not try to catch a bodnar wheel when it's rotating on it's own if you value your hands! It violently ripped itself out of my hands when i crashed a car testing it and that wasn't even set to 100% strength.

    hmm....i think i need to try your bodnar again please Adrian. :p
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2014
  11. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Setting the t500 to above 60% doesn't nessecarily induce clipping. Anything over 60% makes the weaker forces stronger, it's basically like having less/ a smaller dynamic range in audio. Instead of having really really loud sounds, really quiet, medium etc, everything's volume closes in to a more consistent and even volume relative to eachother. The max doesn't get raised, only the lower than max stuff closes in on the max, it's closing the gap between the weakest and strongest by making the weaker stuff stronger, but the strongest stuff doesn't get stronger.

    Like in audio, a larger/wider dynamic range is desired so you have as much variation and proper relative differences of all the different FFB effects, however at 60% the max forces are maxed out and if that still doesn't allow you to feel the subtle effects as much as you want then you have to boost the subtle effects by going over 60%. At 60% the max forces are already maxed out, so you won't get stronger max forces, you will only get the subtle forces beint stronger, in which case the subtle forces will start approching the same power as the forces that are supposed to be much stronger than the subtle ones, AKA less dynamic range.

    If we had wheels that reacted quicker, accelerated quicker, had higher top speeds, had more torque, stopped quicker, etc. then we could all use the largest dynamic range because we could put the FFB so high that we cah get it to make the subtle forces nice and strong without having to "boost" just the lower forces which would lesses the dynamic range. A T500's max power is already maxed out at 60%, so if you still need more of the subtle forces coming through then you need to go over 60% and "boost" them.

    It can, but not nessecarily, induce clipping. If it does, then try lowering the in-game FFB so all forces get decreased linearly (assuming the game does that, which I would assume so).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2014
  12. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    My head exploded from all the numbers (thanks DrR1pper) but I think a sim steering wheel is in my future. My T500 is looking like a lump of plastic compared to the awesome power of the Leo wheel but $4085 dollars is wallet abuse. And that doesn't include a wheel! I could buy a new T500 every year for ten years...
     
  13. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    lol Panigale.

    Spinelli (and regarding Sk1dmarks previous comment) how do you know 60% is already using 100% of the t500's torque? I don't understand how you guys have come up with this percentage? Also are you speaking from the TM control panel or in-game (more specifically rf2)?

    It was my understanding that the rf2 ffb output is a scalar value between 0-100% so that regardless of which wheel you have, a 100% ffb signal sent to a g25 would be asking for the max torque that the g25 motors can produce and 100% ffb signal to a T500 is asking for the max torque that the t500 motor can produce. This is true so long as you have also set the respective wheel's control panel to 100% (i.e. max) overall strength as well (or else anything less will be software limiting the maximum torque output of your motors).

    This is not the same as the "car specific ffb multiplier" in rf2. Changing this value only affects the ratio of the in-game steering wheel torque (calculated by the rf2 physics engine) to the ffb output percentage range (e.g. 0% = no force, 100% = motor's max torque). However, this alone is useless without first defining a maximum in-game steering wheel torque calculated by the games physics engine. Why? Because the steering wheel torque calculated in-game (the same as in real life) has a torque range of 0 to infinity. Gaming wheels have a finite torque range with each wheel having a different range. Therefore, irrespective of the maximum torque output possible with each gaming wheel (which the rf2 has no knowledge or access to) there must also be a maximum torque point set in-game to correlate with 100% ffb output by rf2. This is the ffb clipping point and it occurs at the same point for every wheel you compare so long as you are using the same "car specific ffb multiplier" value. (However, i could be wrong about the clipping point being the same for all wheel but i can't find any differences in the various controller ini files that suggest so.)

    This maximum torque (i.e. clipping point) is defined by the developers and has to be set to a torque value at or above the highest steering torque a driver will ever experience in a specific car and best racing condition. So for example, this might be when the (specific) car is going at it's maximum possible speed around a corner in the best grip situation imaginable. Since you will never experience more torque at the steering wheel (short of a crash) than in this situation, this would be a good place to define the maximum torque (i.e. clipping point) because anything higher is outside the scope of where the car is driven (again without crashing and if you do crash, it doesn't matter if the ffb is clipping since rf2 is not an ffb crash simulator).

    Now in the case of rf2, when i use a "car specific ffb multiplier" of about 0.7 in the Megane i don't experience ffb clipping when driving the car at any track under any condition short of crashing or driving quickly over kerbs. If i go higher or lower than 0.7 i'm not taking full advantage of my steering wheels dynamic range of torque. Higher than 0.7 and i get clipping issue; lower than 0.7 and i simply reduce all the forces felt and never feel the max torque of my wheels motor.

    If all the above is true, then begs the question, why have the devs not set the clipping point when using a "car specific ffb multiplier" of 0.7 (which is never reaches clipping unless you crash the car as explained earlier) to be at the default "car specific ffb multiplier" of 1.0? I think it's because of older wheels that are still in common use today. So wheels such as the g25/27 have very weak ffb and coupled with the far greater range of torque in-game, you can hardly feel the lower end forces on a g25. So in order to increase the strength of the low end forces you have to decrease the range of in-game steering wheel torque. This decreases the in-game steering wheel torque to ffb output ratio (e.g. 100% FFB now occurs at an in-game steering wheel torque of 8Nm instead of 10Nm if you decrease the "car specific ffb multiplier" from 1.0 to 0.8).....which also lowers the point at which clipping occurs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2014
  14. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    .
     
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  15. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    The Thrustmaster control panel. Anything over 60% doesn't increase the max torque/power, but only "boosts" everything lower effectively giving the FFB effects a smaller dynamic range to play with. This may give you the perception of more power as everything is more powerful, but the maximum ppwer hasn't been raised. This is just what I have read many times from many websites, I'll try to see if I can find anything official about it from Thrustmaster themselves.

    I usually play at about 65%-70% and then slightly lower in-game to make up for this as I like the more subtle effects to be relatively exaggerated even if at times it can "drown out" other effects. I find that I personally rely on, and need, the subtle effects, even if it means other effects getting drowned out or even clipping. That's just me though.

    You could also look into the new Frex V3, or ECCI 7000.

    The Frex V3 is supposed to be INSANELY smooth as it has no gears OR belts, they have a patented system along a shaft that looks really, really tasty, and the new V3 version is even more powerful/faster/quicker responding, etc. than before. The ECCI 7000 was reviewed by the guys at Insidesimracing to be even better than the Frex, however they were comparing it to the now old/replaced Frex V1 (or was it the V2?) model. Either way, the V3 is surely better than the V1 and V2.

    I'd love to see a properly thorough comparison between the FREX V3 wheel and the ECCI 7000 wheel, maybe someday.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2014
  16. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    I don't want to hijack the thread but to respond to Spinelli, I'd like to see a comparison of all three high-end sim wheels by someone who has track time or is a professional race driver. My two cents:

    The ECCI 7000 has not been in stock for a year (maybe two) and I don't know of any professional sim setups using it. It is huge which may make it difficult to mount on a rig and a positive review from ISR has little value in my opinion. e.g. Base Performance uses the Leo wheel. The owner used to be a McLaren F1 test driver so that carries weight as an endorsement.

    Frex is interesting (the price is reasonable) however I've tried to contact them in the past and never received a response. If I plan to purchase something (expensive) from a small company I've never done business with I email them first.
    I've ordered stuff from Leo's site before and all went well. They also have support from Precision Sim Engineering (for wheels) and Simon responds to emails very quickly. I just wish Sim Steering's price was closer to the Frex v3.

    The T500 is a great wheel but I need to set multi to 1.6 or 1.7 for most mods to almost feel correct and that heats up the motor and thus slowly reduces FFB. For the FR3.5 and F2 the only open wheel comparison I have is tracking an Atom 3 and at 1.0 those mods don't begin to provide enough FFB. I own a C6 GS and the C6R at 1.0 again is far from my road car nevermind what the race car is probably like. It is the best wheel I've owned but time to upgrade.
     
  17. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Hmmm never knew the ECCI was out of stock. Hey Panigale, I also forgot to mention ARC products ;).
     
  18. smithaz

    smithaz Registered

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    I'd like to know more about this claim as well, I hope it isn't true but if it is then I need to re-think my FFB settings. A quick google search came up with a couple of results on GTPlanet (that I cannot access whilst I'm at work) and an ISI Forum thread containing this;
    Which seems to suggest to me that the T500 does output more force at 100% than at 60%.
     
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  19. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    So i bought a $5 membership at iracing to get into their forum because all the good info and references of these comments regarding t500 ffb linearity and 60% = 100% are from there.

    I found the guy who combined all the data in that graph smithaz (i completely forgot about that graph too). I have the raw excel data for all those wheels and the graph appears to be accurate following my own miniature testing. He included programs to record angular data etc but i didn't have a program that could send a constant force to the wheel with varying the dynamic strength so i resorted to using the T500 control panel "car crash" ffb test that generates a 100% constant force all the way to the right and then all the way to the left for 20%, 40%, 60%, 80% and 100% overall strength settings. I video recorded the 900 degree rotation and using vegas measured the time it took to complete 900 degrees. Here are the results:

    [​IMG]

    If you compare the 60% to 100%, the 100% took 22% less time (0.9/1.15 = 78% = 22% less) which correlates with your linked graph (same as mine below) the t500 @ 100% rotated 22% further (6437/5260 = 122% = 22% more) which proportionately means 22% more torque. It's quite shocking to see (and now remember as another reason why i went for the csr-elite over the t500 the first time) that the CSR-Elite has a near perfect linearity throughout the entire range of ffb strength (x-axis)! It's very impressive on graph and the only reason i can think it is so perfectly linear is that those motors are used in printers which require absolute consistency and positional accuracy. I think any fluctuations we see on the the CSR-Elite line could be attributed to the mass of the wheel (acting as rotational resistance) and if it were much lower the accuracy would probably improve (so in the case of a printer head which has an extremely lower mass comparatively).

    As for the T500, it has a more s-curve shaped line. In the lower ffb effect strength region (around 0 to 5% for 100% overall strenth and 0 to 10% for 60% overall strength on your graph smithaz) there is literally no rotation of the wheel. I think there is too much resistance for the small amount of torque to overcome. It is true that the CSR-Elite is smoother and more frictionless than the T500 which you can observe by the feel of the wheel when the wheel is turned off or there is no ffb sent to the wheel. If you spin the wheels the csr-elite rotates further for the same amount of force you apple to the t500. There is a kind of notchiness in the T500 when you rotate the wheel (but i want to make clear you do not feel/notice this at all when in motion) which could be from the toothed belt system or the poles of the commuters inside the motors or the higher moment of inertia of the t500 rim or some combination of them. Whatever is causing some underlying resistence is causing the lower end torque/forces to be ineffective at starting up the wheel rotation meaning it is not enough force to overcome the static friction.

    Also, the 60% is not as linear as the CSR-Elite, let alone the 100% line. This is a shame for the T500 and for sure is a bonus for the CSR-Elite as it means you get a perfectly accurate force output for the CSR-Elite. The t500 60% is not terrible but it's not great either, it's simply "ok" and i would say sufficiently so for the application of sim racing. What you can notice however is that for the 60% line there are two segments of linearity which is between 15% to 70% and then from 70% to 100% is also linear but at a shallower angle. As for the 100% line you have a a linear 10% to 40% and then a shallower 40% to 65% and then a sudden shot up between 65% to 70%, followed by a linear but pretty much flat response of constant max torque for 70% to 100% (not very good/ideal.

    Now in the case of 60%, the curve is really quite workable with still. But at 100% overall as-is is just a chaotic, inconsistent mess (despite the initial 10% to 40% and 40% to 65% linearity segments). Here is where i'm introducing my graph (uses the same raw data as the one you linked smithaz...just less data points used):

    [​IMG]

    Before i go further, i want to say that i was much more happy with the feel i was getting from 100% overall with 0.6 ingame than i was from 60% overall and 1.0 ingame. Now you might be asking why use 1.0 because it has clipping issues and the answer is that only at 1.0 do the forces feel nearly as strong as they do with 100% overall and 0.6 ingame. You have to use 0.6 to completely avoid any clipping issues which feels so much weaker (60% with 0.6 ingame). Not happy with that compromise.

    So i drive the megane the most and found 100% with 0.6 ingame felt both stronger and what feels like no clipping issues (despite the fact that we can see the 100% overall has massive clipping issues above 65-70% despite also indeed producing more torque (about 22% more). Well, looking at the pedal plugin driving around different tracks i've come to notice that the ffb bar with ffb 0.6 ingame hovers around 30% and usually peaks no higher than 60% and reserves above 60% for running over kerbs or crashing or other extreme situations. Consequently, i'm indeed not feeling any clipping issue because with 100% overall and 0.6 ingame in the megane i'm not reaching beyond the spiking point in torque for 100% overall strength.

    I actually didn't realise this until i took a drive on the IsR Camero at nurbergring the other day where i used the same 100% with 0.6 ingame and the car just felt terrible and dead to the feel. It felt like the wheel was constantly at around 80 to 100% ffb strength and i couldn't drive very well at all as there was not dynamic feel of the car. I then decided to try (due to the conversions we were having on this thread at the time) 60% overall and 1.0 ingame and suddenly the car felt a LOT better. I regain the dynamic feel of the car that was previously missing and the wheel was not constantly heavy (but still a bit heavy overall). But i was still hitting some clipping quite a lot in that car at 1.0 ingame and could feel it around most corners where there would be suddenly just a constant 100% force. Now, instead of testing at lower ingame ffb i reverted back to the 100% overall and lowered the ingame below 0.6 till the ffb bar in the pedal plugin was like it was for the megane...averaging around 20-30% on the straights with some dancing of the car and peaking 60% in the corners and it imediatelly regained that dynamic feel i get in the megane again. The added benefit of using 100% overall and lower ingame ffb is that for some reason the forces all felt a little stronger throughout the range. With the graph i made i can kind of see why.

    So if we look to my graph, you can see the 60% (blue) and 100% (green) overall strength settings. I said that ingame with 100% overall my ffb bar shows that it never goes over 60% when going around corners so that is like saying 60% is 100% for the dynamic range i feel at the wheel (neglecting crashing which raising the ffb bar to 100% easily) The amount of force (measured by the amount of rotation in this graph) is coincidentally the same as the 100% ffb effect strength for the 60% overall. The red line is a scaled back version of the 60% overall so that it matches the 0-60% ffb effect strength for the 100% overall (green line). What we can see is that the linearity of these two curves are actually quite similar (arguable identical for all intensive purposes). The only difference being that for the 100% overall (green line) they are all raised around 25% in torque. This would go a ways to explaining how i say it feels stronger across the board with 100% overall but combine with 0.6 ingame (for the megane and less for the camero) i don't feel the clipping issue and all the forces feel underlyingly stronger.

    I do hope that made some degree of sense and i apologise for it being so frick'n long. If you skipped to the bottom and decided not to bother reading it i certainly wouldn't blame you.

    edit: I forgot to also mention that despite the much better linearity of the ffb in the CSR-Elite vs the T500, i must say that i still prefer the T500 simply because you can have all the linearity in the world but without a good (i.e. high) level of force feedback strength you will loose out tremendously in the confidence that your wheel gives you compared to a weaker wheel. This is certainly the case in my own experience jumping from one to the other. And as i've shown, you can still work with the t500 despite the non-linearity of the ffb and setup the tm overall stregnth and ingame ffb setting to make 100% work for you without the issue of in-game clipping. This is just for rf2 though....if the clipping point were higher then you could/would actually probablly use 60% because there is little to no gain with using 100% except a higher peak torque (which is still a benefit).
     
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  20. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    Sorry for off topic.

    @panigale

    If you're looking for a high end wheel check out the simxperience accuforce wheel. I'm guessing it will be in the ecci price range and it's proven to work with rF2. I've read other posts that the ecci doesn't work with rF2 but they could just be doing something wrong. The wheel hasn't been released yet though. Here is a video of it being used.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b63BHDjqg8g
     

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