Smooth 179 FPS and very low input lag (but in expense of details)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by KeiKei, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    Well, I think that many of feels like ice comments can be related to input lag actually, it really murders any feel of car and makes tail come around unexpectedly, that is my experience at least with lag and I do try to avoid it.

    Would be nice to have presets for gfx settings that could be shared like setups.

    One could make different 'settings' for replays, for video recording, for different tracks etc. So it would be easy to pick optimized settings for each situation.

    Then of course people with similar hardware would benefit from sharing those settings, some weight more visual appearance, some more performance, testing these different views would also become quite simple.

    Also I think it would not be too difficult to implement? Maybe someone should put it up to wish lists.
     
  2. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Added few comparision images to my first posting of this thread to help visualize what input lag and screen tearing means in practice.
     
  3. hoser70

    hoser70 Registered

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    Think I'd rather deal with a little input lag than turn my graphix setting low to achieve 179 frames, LOL!
     
  4. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    One reason why I don't notice tearing at 60fps is probably because it is up there and I watch road, when driving fast it really does not matter what there is hovering above the track :D
     
  5. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Yes but 0,05 seconds per lap in 3 hour endurance race at Mills gives me 7,5 second advantage in total! ;) But that's just comical guessing/speculation and really not the point at all. Maybe I didn't do very good job highlighting my goals in the first posting.

    The tiny 5,5 ms improvement in input lag is of course welcome plus but the main reason for this 179 FPS thing is to get rid of disruptive screen tearing and have smooth framerate without the huge impact on driving from increased input lag (I think "sync: video" will increase input lag something like 50-100 ms which is basically eternity in simracing). So for me personally decreasing level of details is not setting grapics low but to increase graphics. I'm not distracted if track doesn't contain 500 trees each casting it's own shadow onto hood of my car but when universe freezes for a short moment every second or some gigantic vertical rupture divides the space-time then my eyes start to hurt. :) But of course it's all individual so to each his own.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2012
  6. hoser70

    hoser70 Registered

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    Heh! ;-)

    I don't think I can turn my settings down low enough to get that type of frame rate anyway, so I guess I just need to deal with it.
     
  7. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    I agree and have observed it myself but unfortunately there's a catch. If game engine doesn't keep it's inner framerate precisely same as monitor refresh rate then the tearing will slowly travel down. When it reaches the level your eyes are watching it really starts to look horrible. Been there, done that (in some previous build, maybe 90). But all is not vain. If the game engine could be synchronized to monitor refresh rate then it would be possible to keep the tearing line constantly at top of the screen. So let's hope someone at ISI is reading this thread and maybe could take a look at it. I truly believe it could work extremely well; lightweight (allows lots of details/effects), silky smooth, no tearing (in field of vision) and very low input lag. In other words ultimate solution! I guess it depends whether monitor signals back it's draw event or not - which I don't know.
     
  8. emilblixt

    emilblixt Registered

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    I have my FPS limited at 120. Compared to v-sync at 60 the FFB feels much crisper and more "direct". Can someone confirm that this is not just a big fat placebo?
     
  9. Steve Watts

    Steve Watts Registered

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    Interesting whether this is a real effect or not because I have felt it too.

    The only way I have found to remove tearing is with video sync and frame rate 60, but this has lag. Setting max pre-rendered frames to 1 reduces but does not eliminate the lag.

    The only way I have found to remove lag is use GPU sync, this has no percievable lag for me even with 30fps all graphics on full.

    Interestingly I think the skippy handles well with either way, no problems with control and lap times similar.
     
  10. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    GTX570 soc @1920 max settings , 8x , Shadows High, I get solid 60fps video sync and baby bum smooth races.
    Few tracks will drop below 60 at start for a moment no big deal
    Never have input lag with 2 Fanatecs , non-issue
    My rF2 is close enough to perfect, reducing quality settings for more fps would be going backwards.

    Actually I find it surprising people with way more GPU then me only run 4x AA and reduced shadows

    >> :eek: stunned mullet :eek: <<
     
  11. Steve Watts

    Steve Watts Registered

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    Have you got HDR and environment reflections on? With my 670 I only get around 45 fps with everything on max, although I am on 3 screens.

    Moving your wheel back and forth quickly - do you see no delay at all in the movement of the wheel on the screen using video sync? I definately get some lag which can be removed using GPU sync but it isnt as smooth.
     
  12. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    I think it's technically impossible to avoid input lag when using "sync: video" and therefore believe you just don't notice it and hence doesn't bother you (maybe because of those bottlebottoms you're wearing? Just kidding, I know it's not you. :) Great avatar anyway!). Better not research it further because if you experience only once how much it affects your driving then bye bye max settings! :)

    BTW input lag is really misleading term because it's not lag from your controllers to computer but instead game engine's lag to you. Game engine has created image to be shown but it's holding it back for a moment before sends it to monitor. Better term would be output lag IMHO. Well lag is a lag.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2012
  13. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    How is that PLR file max framerate then handling this, it caps framerate to 60, but does not do any syncing. Sync software sounds then like it might be of such kind, but haven't really tested if that would together with max framerate make that effect.

    Best is of course poor eyesight, natura AA and motion blur, without sacrificing fps :)
     
  14. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    I like the idea - especially those personal versions for different purposes. Sending and sharing setups to others is more problematic - would need some kind of system to only show settings to groups with pretty similar hardwares. I think it's YOU who should think it over and eventually put it up to the wish list. :)
     
  15. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Could it just be that when input lag is low then your screen is pretty much in sync with your wheel/FFB and therefore it feels direct?
     
  16. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    If game engine does precisely 60 FPS but your monitor refresh rate could be e.g. 59,98 and therefore it's not in sync - tearing line will move across the screen eventually. I've tried it in the past and that's why I believe it could only work if monitor tells it's state back to game engine.

    Sync software was long time what I used but it's little twitches always come back to haunt me. :) It happens after every new build when I test different sync options to see if there has been changes. Sync video is so damn beautiful and makes sync software look really bad... :)

    I think have tested max framerate and also auto details fps with sync software but it didn't work out.
     
  17. MJP

    MJP Registered

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    I have 2 monitors, one I normally use and one that gets (got) used as a backup when my main monitor was being repaired. Neither monitor shows any visual lag using vsync when tested like in that video in the 1st post (lol at the lag in that, awful).

    The difference between the 2 monitors is that on my main monitor vsync doesn't seem to affect my driving, whereas on my backup monitor it does. It's difficult to describe what's wrong, it's more a feeling that something's not quite right when using vsync and I find it's more difficult to hit the apexes, end up missing a lot of them. When I turn vsync off that feeling that something's wrong goes away and I can hit the corner apexes much more easily.

    Is this the effect of input lag, I don't know, neither monitor is any sort of low response 'gaming' monitor, main monitor is a 5 year old VA panel and the backup monitor is a 6 year old TN panel.
     
  18. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    That is quite interesting, I don't think that it can be any kind of ghosting even that comes to mind, ghosting should not be affected by sync, imo.

    My monitor is not very old, but I can see lot of ghosting, especially sideways movement seem to be causing that or at least easy to spot when other car moves into corner sideways across the screen.
    No setting should have effect to that though.
     
  19. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Mate if I had 3 screens i would be lucky to get 30 fps :)

    I do realize that.
    But with a 2500K@4.5GHz and GTX570 soc why would I want too 1/2 my framerate or run less then maximum graphics........ I really have no idea. :)

    1/2 the frame rate you are going to introduce all sorts of "gremlins".

    Yeah I have never really had noticeable lag in sims, Shift, pCars , F1 series they would all be exceptions.
    I think lag with Logitech is worse then Fanatec from most threads I read too.

    Good test would be Indianapolis, thread a needle along the white lines at 220mph + :)
    I see lots of people that DO have input lag or steering sensitivity or using too much FF problems there for sure.

    edit: Only things I turn off is the SUN, MOVIES, BLUR and HIGH shadows , turn off replays online, No spotters ever , otherwise everything is full.

    I know what input lag is ...I have it in pCARS and some ports.
    okay no lag was a bad choice of phrase.
    No way I can notice it or affects my driving or visuals with the laptimes I do in rF2.
    I can keep with fastest guys in my room there abouts .........and I know in my heart I just ain't that talented to be doing it with lag. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2012
  20. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    I tell you what is a education KeiKei :)

    Drive your best track with no FF whatsoever.

    Unfortunately I have had none for the last 3 weeks ( 2 broken Fanatecs )

    Now if you asked me would I swap to Logitech wheel for better reliability " in the whole " ( imho that is undeniable ) but maybe have input lag ? That is debatable for sure :)

    My point is with no FF at Indy rfactor2 is sublime it is almost as if you have FF, the car and tyres feel alive.
    No sim with no FF ever felt like that to me not even close.

    But any track with a right turn is nigh impossible to get near my PBs. lopl
    Reason is obvious I lapped Indyr 3 weeks solid 1,000s of laps FISI 40.940 no tow
    I just got used to it were as other tracks just take way to long.
    I guess if I was forced to drive all locations with no FF eventually I would do PBs again.

    I think that is a fantastic indication of the level of feel rF2 generates.


    Try skippy at Lime Rock no FF compare your best, big wake up.
     

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