FIA GT3 by Apex Modding Team(WIP)

Discussion in 'Vehicles' started by GTClub_wajdi, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. GTClub_wajdi

    GTClub_wajdi Registered

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    I'm really that the car and maybe the tracks modding in rfactor 2 is going to take a different way and goes somewhere else!
    ISI, wake up please!
     
  2. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    Most of the new sims have these complex tire models. So unless the game developer (who actually understands the model) generates a large selection of tires for modders to barrow, mod development is going to slow down. At least until they get a better understanding of the model.

    The new tire file is documented here:
    http://isiforums.net/f/attachment.php?attachmentid=959&d=1328039718

    You have lots of parameters in the new TMG file. Basically you define the shape of the tire and the thickness of the wall, tread ect. You also define the layers of the tire. Then you load it into the +ttool and it runs tests on the tire at varying loads, slip angles, pressures, ect and generates a large lookup table (this is what makes the new file so large). This tool takes a very long time to run (hours) depending on how fast your machine is. Our computers are way too slow to calculate this stuff in real time, hence the +ttool and the lookup table.

    So the days of simply opening Notepad and changing one line and then doing some laps is over. This new model is light years ahead of the old model. I hope people don't just give up on it. But then again, they will probably run into the same problems on all the other sims too. Maybe all modding will just die due to the advancements in all the new sims.
     
  3. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2013
  4. Jamezinho

    Jamezinho Registered

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    Well this would be a great shame if this mod doesn't make it to rF2. :( This is one of my most anticipated mods as I'm a big fan of GT racing.

    The reasons for halting the mod are completely understandable, though.

    ISI needs to help the modding community. Very few people buy rFactor because of the stock content. The product will live or die depending on the attach rate of the modding community.
     
  5. gilloux31

    gilloux31 Registered

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    Marc, AC is an other opportunity. We don't give up but at the moment we have difficulties to define a project which motivate us. Maybe it is too early to decide. So we are waiting

    Noel, i just think that isi is wrong about the way to define tires. Indeed it will be useful to preprocess several data, but in my opinion, modders haven't got these data. At the time of rf1, it was already difficult to get simple grip / slip ratio and grip / slip angle graphs (we managed to have some but it was hard discussion with teams) but i don't think one second that we will be able to get the manufacturing secret of michelin and so on.

    Anyway, one will have to "prove" how behave isi tires but tracing grip/slip ratio and grip/slip angle graphs
     
  6. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    ISI has the +ttool for assisting in tire dev, what they lack is a tool to build the nodes (tire shape) easily. It sounds like AC will eventually have a tool for this. But the same could be said for ISI. They may plan on releasing a tool for this too. The TMG file has changed a little throughout the builds, they may be waiting until they feel the tire model is done before they write a tool.
     
  7. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    ok thanks mate just wondering :)

    cool did'nt know that, suppose a lot will depend on how good the tools are for AC at launch and the support modders get.
     
  8. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    I see your point. Well I guess one option is to use ISI tires, change some values here and there and then rebuild the lookup table. It may not be 100% like the real tire (because you lack the real data) but the tires in rF1 were not entirely real either.

    I guess the real problem is the time it takes to do the trial and error to find a good tire. You can't simply change a value and then test it 30secs later. It is a one line change followed by 2 hours to rebuild the lookup table.
     
  9. Slamfunk3

    Slamfunk3 Registered

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    The answer to the problems with this mod will hopefully be the ISI Camaro when it comes out. Should have proper GT3 tires on it. I realize it's not THE answer but as we fight on to find more realism it's where we find ourselves at this time

    P.S. I'm a huge fan of this mod for rF1 so I do hope it gets sorted
     
  10. Rony1984

    Rony1984 Registered

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    Talking about notepads and noting things, note that the new tire model consists of 2 models, the lets say virtual tire produced by the ttool, and the real-time model, which are still mere numbers and thus could be noted in some pad:)

    Maybe for modders it would be a good way to start by taking the virtual model from ISI and then mod the real-time model themselves. That said, ISI has conformed that they will share basic tires with modders in the future
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2013
  11. Muxi-Mux

    Muxi-Mux Registered

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    Yes, i think so too...
     
  12. Max Angelo

    Max Angelo Registered

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    Yes, indeed.

    New tech requires long time in order to become confortable to the modders, but i think a first "step ahead" in the quality of the tire simulation is taking the ISI tires and modifying them trying to fit size etc in the third part addon car.

    Why i am talking of "first step ahead"?
    Because so doing the result will be more simulative, compared to the old Pacejka based tires in rF (elastic tire body and all the pros of the new tech).

    Disvantages? I really cant spot any disvantage, because the tire data were not available neither in rF!
    I mean, a tire in rF had no chance to be more "simulative" than a tire in rF2 copied by ISI cars!
    On the contrary, TGM tires are more simulative "by themselves", taking advantage for the new tech.

    ISI might release a decent set of "exemple tires" for a variety of cars?
    Yes, i think so and i guess that, soon or later, ISI will take the time to build "example compounds" good for several historic and modern race series.
    Waiting for this, actually ISI is yet providing good TGM for some cars and also the FIA GT3 could use tires based on the 370!
     
  13. fanlebowski

    fanlebowski Registered

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    well, we get back to the main problem as at the release of the rf2 beta. even if the TGM is a good model, personnaly make a full compound takes about 6hours. so on a gt car, i need 12h of rendering to test something.

    that's why gillou talk about a "real" tool to make some tests, especially about deflections (IMO)
     
  14. tHenOrthfAce

    tHenOrthfAce Registered

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    If the tiremodel and its tools are working correctly you guys should be able to use aleast the compound from the isi made michelin tires (GTR and C6R) and make changes to the carcasse-profile, which is possible via notepad (some talented folk should be able to write a small tool for that). Then create the coresponding lookup tables and go for it.

    The easiest way would be using the given tires and to not give a "whatever" for having tires which are about 5-10% off regarding geometry.

    BTW a GT3 league mod would be awesome aswell.
     
  15. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    You're never going to get a tool that speeds up this process. It just isn't possible. We don't have fast enough CPUs to calculate this stuff real time. So either we go back to crap tires, or deal with the slow compile times.

    The only thing that could be improved is to add the ability to modify the carcasse-profile and other parameters within the +ttool.
     
  16. fanlebowski

    fanlebowski Registered

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    i don't ask it in real time ;)

    but just a way to ask what will be the deflection for a X load in Y direction. even if we'll have to wait 1minute it's ok ^^
     
  17. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    Ah, I see. Now that would be very helpful.
     
  18. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I am not sure about that. I guess what isi is doing is actually simulating the tire model with a FEM. They run lots of simulations of this, for sure, highly non-linear model and afterwards doing some type of interpolation between different range of load cases.

    The result so far i would say it is outstanding. For me it is clearly the best in terms of simulation and what catches me the most in rf2. Real road and weather is nice but i think that will be easier to copy for other companies. the realistic behaviour of the car is the most important thing in a simulator IMO.

    Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 usando Tapatalk 2
     
  19. Marcel Offermans

    Marcel Offermans Registered

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    If this is really a blocking issue for modders, I'm sure within the community we can come up with a good solution. Just think about the number of computers we as a community have available. I'm sure lots of people would love to help out modders by making available their system for them to do these calculations. That way, modders could speed up the process by running multiple calculations in parallel. And this probably does not have to be too complex. Create a forum where modders can put parameters to calculate, then have people pick those up, process them and post the results.
     
  20. GCCRacer

    GCCRacer Banned

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    It is a shame to read this (albeit totally understandable) reason why mods are not progressing. To be honest, I'm getting disentchanted with RF2 day by day more, because there just aren't proper car series available yet, and by the looks of it will not be within the next half year at least. If AC can deliver all the cars they claim, including at least a few GT3 and GTE cars in the same performance range then it will allow for meaningful race and not just "spec type" racing.

    ISI should feel challenged to do something here for the modders, because the whole concept and business model of RF2 obviously is to make a platform for modders so that other people will purchase based on a variety of 3rd party concent. That varierty is very, very far off.
     

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