FIA Formula Two Williams JPH1B Released

Maybe we're talking about different stuffs, because what I feel (and what I see in my telemetry) is not a dead force but a reversed force. There is a huge difference...so, if I work on multiplier I'm making the problem worse.

I can lock my steering wheel just after a complete wheel turning at any speed. From very low speeds to high speeds. The wheel stay locked thanks to the reversed force without self-aligning...THere is nothing I can do tweaking the multiplier. The only thing that works a bit is to change castors and cambers.

 

I was very frustrated with it at first but loving it now

Using 270 degrees on the wheel with 25% damping (gives a bit of weight effect without losing fine forces)

Does anyone know when the turbo will be added ?????
-i'm drooling at the sheer thought if this

I'm suspecting the people that are not getting on with this car(like me at first as it felt seriously naff!) have maybe not found the sweet spot for their steering settings etc

With the added turbo this will become a top simcar I'm sure

 

That is what happens, but also that is what happens only when one turns awful lot, there are very few turns that need so much turning, Malaysia has none as two tightest turns (T1 & T2) don't really require so much turning bit of play with throttle helps in turning of course.

Maybe Croft is one of the few places where one really needs all that 20.7 degrees at last turn, but even there it is quite quick visit.

If I turn whole 540 degrees with 20.7 lock it probably enters to negative steering force, but it probably even should, however I don't use that much of turning.

I have logging at fastest possible, this is what I got for lap of Mills when I tried to make fastest time possible.
View attachment 3989

Sure it is noisy plot, I set cutoff to -2500 to 2500 so we can better see low values. It would be interesting to compare how for example your lap would be, is there differences in steering arm force?

I think that this lap was one that I attached replay earlier to this thread, but not sure, it is bit pain to search replay of this lap as I have done so many sessions and in single session there can be 20 laps, longest have been 50 laps in Malaysia with single tyres, of course tires were shot after lap 5 already, but I wanted to know how long I can drive them, I found out that forever really, can't get flat tire and with my skills there is no huge difference in lap times either, same with car weight, if I have 100kg more weight I'm too poor driver to make lighter vehicle to go around a track any faster than heavy, sometimes heavy car I can drive faster...

Anyway, I don't spot sudden drops of force, but maybe because I turn less than 60% of 20.7 degrees on that track when trying to go faster than my skills allow, or something along those lines.

 

It has turbo if you have 107 game version. Stall the engine and you can even hear turbo sound because of bug, try driving slowly, like 2nd gear and preferably under 2000 rpm, then accelerate and you should hear turbo waking up. For me it appears to get full speed bit too easily under low throttle (maintains rpm bit too well?), but of course I can be wrong too.

 

Jtbo

Cheers, it has the turbo? Arh darn didn't notice that, yes I'm on build 107, someone said the turbos not on it yet,

I thought the turbo would be more noticeable, yes I hear the distant whistle sound,

Right time for more "testing" (-;

 

The turbo is not fully implemented. From build 107 release notes:

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/1396-Downloads?p=94579&viewfull=1#post94579

 

I'm trying to test every new stock content without changing anything in my settings because we're in beta test and the tweak per car at this stage it's not the best solution to help the developing. But this is just my personal opinion....

Apart from this you said you use 900° of steering rot, which is absolutely wrong and unrealistic with a car like this, plus you're using various tweaking in the controller.ini and, maybe, a filtering to reduce the rattling. So...I'm not surprised if you can't feel the problem as other guys here.

I can assure you that using standards, and a correct steering rot, without bitching with tweakings...the car feels annoying even if you're trying to do your best lap or you're just trying to zig zag to warm your tires. It's a brutal and vertical changing in the aligning torque that needs to be investigated.

I'm not saying I'm 100% right and the car is 100% broken in the caster/steering wheel section...but if the car will be the same in the final version I can assure you I'll never drive it because, realistic or not, it feels unnatural for me. Understeer/Oversteer are natural behaviors..even the self aligning torque curve for smallest angles...but imho we're getting a different problem here.

PS: it's a pity because I like how it works when you don't get this issues...

 

5 4 0 is different from 9 0 0

Read my message, I write there what rotation I use and what steering lock, also when you read message where I mentioned 900 degrees you understand how you ended up to that false information, I believe. Some use 270 degrees with 20.7 lock, which I think would be even more unrealistic, like cheating.

Formula 2 is first car which actually seem to have good center area response in steering with default settings, unlike other cars that have been over sensitive to my liking at least.

Damping based wheel resistance or friction based wheel resistance, for me friction based sound more logical, I prefer to find settings that work and maybe those are chosen as default settings in future if most find them to provide better working ffb?
Different approach, nothing else.

I don't like filtering, lag is what I dislike most, so I have used 0 filtering, I put it to 2 so that I could set bit higher car specific ffb multiplier and already I imagine bit of lag in ffb so I am considering returning back to 0.

But where that brutal change to aligning torque comes from and as you said it is visible from logs, at which point of turning you get it at Mills track? How it looks on your logs, maybe we can find reason behind it why for me such does not happen, I doubt that simply changing single line of ffb to be friction based instead of damping based would explain that, but I must say that when turning force decreases more gradually after the change, worth to try that change anyway, with every vehicle, including those I have build handling myself, I find that change is to more natural forces, maybe some wheels respond better to friction based and others better for damping based wheel resistance? Maybe G25 should have friction based as default? Maybe purpose of that option could be explained to us as explaining to child so we can understand more

Maybe it is bug in code where in some conditions steering force acts wrongly, that is why comparing our logs from Mills track could reveal something regards of that, worth to take a look, right?

 

Someone lied and told him it was rf2 but it was rf pro. How would he know?

 

@ Jtbo

I've the problem everywhere. No matter which turn or which track...or at which speed. Everywhere, all the time. With both G25 and Thrustmaster F430. The video with the Picture in Picture Motec show it perfectly.

Do not ask me where the bug is because I don't know for sure...but apart the rattling my G25 works perfectly with other ISI contents/titles and the Thrustmaster is smooth like a charm with a far better centering force...but with this car it's like I've a magnet somewhere in the belt drive...

Honestly I don't want to tweak anything with my stuff or being crazy to find a solution/explanation...so I'll wait for a fix.

 

But it can be that it is not possible to fix if it appears to be correct in their end and then many would not be able to really use that car

I don't even have much tweaked settings, just normal recommended sim racing settings in logitech control panel, 106% effect strength, rest 0% centering spring checked but set to 0%, 540 degrees wheel turn.

In game ffb multiplier 0.6-0.65, I change it bit depending from moon's position and who knows why, but I change it a bit.

Then I have 20.7 steering lock and only that one line changed in controller.ini (I think it was that file?) that has something to do with steering feel, I have changed second line too, but it only affects when car is stationary according to comment of that line.

Still, even without changing any lines of controller.ini I did not have such sudden disappearance of wheel forces, surely it was shorter area where I could feel edge was, kind of edge of grip, turn more to enter understeer and keep within limits to have no understeer, hard to explain really, I think there is proper name for that too, but anyway nothing as harsh as people describe and certainly I don't think my wheel has started to turn more by itself, except with cars I have made that have such geometry that such should happen.

I'm really curious why it is like such, what there is so different in my system that makes it work bit differently?

Mysteries always require an answer, but sometimes to find the answers that are near one must look far, so maybe there is difference if one has installed 107 as update or as clean install?

Oh yes, it can of course be what you said, higher force effects to overcome light feel, which might indeed work against you in there, that could explain self turning wheel.

I tried to shake car to warm up tires twice, I usually spin out when doing that so I did stop doing that, I would require more skills to be able to drive car like that, but it is not shameful, some drivers in F1 can't do it, at least one managed to fail at warmup lap I recall

What if ISI finds car to be ok, if there will not be change to ffb, would it mean many people will not drive it then?

Many years ago I had Microsoft wheel, it had button to turn forces off, I quite often kept them off as they were a bother, especially when changing direction of turning wheel fast forces were often lagging so that they were pushing wrong direction, so it was better with forces off and maybe because of used to drive without forces, I don't seek strong ffb but informative ffb. With megane and historics 0.2 to 0.3 is ok ffb multiplier for me, maybe most use lot stronger ?

 

Well here's a lap around Mills Inner Loop C with default set 540 range 20.7 lock, lap time 1:01.5 which is roughly same as yours. You can see the Steering Arm Force tends to reverse at lower speeds. There was some understeer at the last tighter turn with lot of lock, also the very last turn was rear sliding. I have no confidence in the car with this ratio and GT rim, so the effect would likely be less if I could drive bit more properly.

Edit: link as the forum scales the image.
http://localhostr.com/file/CAdcajKwwVdm/rF2_b107_F2_v10_MillsInnerLoopC_sa_1-01-5.png

 

For the forum scaling, all you have to do is right click on the image and choose view image and you see the full sized one.

 

Yes, I know but I think it doesn't work on all browsers, like IE. If the forum would make it a link as well when it scales it'd be better.

 

I'd say replace the speed with slip angle from front & rear wheels and it would be even more usefull

 

This would all be explained by very low caster. I don't think 2.5° really counts as VERY low. I wish it was adjustable so I could raise it and see if that fixes the FFB issues.

 

I know what is the direct reason. But still can't believe that it would cause disabling centering forces at all.

 

Totally agree with you. I'm pretty sure the issue is caused by the low caster...

 

I know they're 2 different cars...but I just made a little test forcing a 2.5° caster (instead 10°) on my Dallara F309 and the result is 101% the same. So...if the F2 caster have to be locked at 2.5° we probably have to live with it...

 

Thx, I made very crude mockup for comparing purposes:
View attachment 3993

Then here is graphs from some other car I'm working on, it is not finished at all and has currently lot of things wrong in it, but you can let go of wheel and it catches drifts automatically, like same car in real world, but real car wheels turn more and currently I'm getting bit of issue where rear end has lot more grip than front, some comma dot error or something else yet to be reveal itself.
View attachment 3996
It goes always negative when turning left, where formula two has that opposite, force goes negative when turning right.

Car uses quite high caster, here are key parameters, some varies a bit with model:
Camber -0.5 degrees
Castor 7.58 degrees
Kingpin inclination 9.5 degrees

From these Scrub, Trail and RC are measured and computed so might contain errors, but as I said WIP and everything I still need to measure and verify few times to be sure.
Scrub radius 45mm
Trail 120mm
Steering arm length 110mm
Roll centre 138mm
Camber -0.2 degrees
Castor 7.8 degrees
Kingpin inclination 8.7 degrees

Formula 2 ffb seems to be rather noisy, is it tyres that affect to that or does it come from geometry?

I added slip ratios to my graphs, I'm not yet sure how to read them, but I think car is driftable, yes?
View attachment 3997

Maybe I don't get such issues as I use throttle to turn the car?

edit: Last two images got messed up when saving to gif, new ones here http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/7614-FIA-Formula-Two-Williams-JPH1B-Released?p=99675&viewfull=1#post99675

edit2: I might been able to fix photos in this post.