lack of mods? caused by packaging system? Does rf2 not have enough content?

Also in rF1, at this stage of development we had no single car, I think we had screenshots, but when first video of rF1 came, can't remember?

Yeah, people have short memories, who remembers 70's when world was totally scared of upcoming ice age? Yeah, not even scientists that then were at news warning how ice age will began, but that is how human memory is, it is not meant for such long time perioids

 

1 - No, the packaging system is fine, sure it needs some tweaks but thats what Beta is about!
2 - Again no, I do think there needs to be a lot more leeway when it comes to Users Modding released Mods, having to faff about with mas files just to change one Talent file is gonna be a pain in the arse unless ISI alter that slightly. Sure they've mentioned excluding Skins (which should've been obvious from the start really!!) and sounds but for me theres much more they can exclude (AIW, Talent, VEH for example)
3 - Think of it this way, we got rF1 at Gold so only got mods thereafter, we've had RF2 since January and already have new cars/tracks...so essentially we're ahead of where we could've been!
4 - For the time being Yes, again its not Gold yet and as Tim has said before the marketing plot will thicken once the game nears Gold. I fully expect some more officially annnounced content around that time, which can only be a good thing.

 

If you want to make a bad mod you can ignore everything new that rF2 has brought. You could still have car converted from other game with rTrainer physics on a BTB track. Truly the most difficult part is to get that thing packaged so that it works in single play. Reason why we haven't seen these bad mods (yet) is because these modders/converters still play with rF1 or some other game. But we will eventually see this stuff again like we did in rF1.

Nothing stops bad mods ever, and it doesn't even bother me.


But I still don't like the packaging system at all, and never will.

 

Well...of course you're right. Nobody can stop rubbish mods being released...and honestly I do not care too much... I'll still skip this stuff and go on.

About the new packaging system..the only thing I do not like at all is the silent fault you can get when you install/uninstall/update a mod. You can easily fail and messed up your inventory, without getting any information about WHY and WHEN you failed...

But I appreciate the fact they (ISI) are working to find a good way to avoid mismatch and messed up mods.

 

Yes the value of the system is in the fact that somebody who is complete noob with computers can have a custom mod installed. But it has always been like that, we go with the rules made for the dumbest and then all the rest of us suffer.

 

Yes very much agreed Tuttle. Still hoping they fine tune the modding process...
cheers to all and thanks for a decent discussion..

 

Actually it's not complex People are just saying such things when they lack the will to learn something new.

 

It is mostly more work, especially if you want to have a play with existing mod which was main way of getting into modding in rF1 for most, I believe.

I wrote quide how to get F1 car to moddable state, also I wrote how it was done in rF1, anyone can have a look at F1 car at ceiling topic and see how that differs. It is hundreds of percent's longer process and as we all have limited time, it reduces amount of things can be done if those things take more time. Even it would not really be meaningful time difference it might be enough to put away from modding, that hooked effect is lost.

It is not bad idea, but I think that there could be much better implementations to have solution where it would not be away from anything while still achieving the same goals.

It has however not much effect to amount of released mods, more of effect how many come to dark side (modding) and I still think that when we have hundred car mods and hundred tracks, it might provide to be bit of problem when joining to server, you might end up having to download those hundred cars and tracks + older versions so that you can enter all servers. However maybe some neat solution comes to that.

 

Personally I now think a simple Sync Tool would've worked wonders as apposed to designing the new packaging system, finding its flaws and mending along the way, but things move on and we just have to adjust. Reminds me of when level creation for FPSs became less about the editor for the game and more about making things in 3DSMax/Maya then importing, you could no longer do everything in one program, but we dealt with that transition just fine eventually and the RF2 Modders will no doubt follow suit with this.

 

I've used it for cars and tracks, and I must say it is not as complex it might sound. But still, it is frustrating and awkward. Problem with packaging thing is that it is completely irrelevant to the actual modding work which I like as a modder. It has nothing in it that would make me happy of using it, exploring it, learning it, tweaking it, using it. Nothing but forced obligation after the actual work (car/track) has already been done.

I wouldn't see this as a problem if this would be only truth I know, but with rF1 I experienced the most perfect modding platform there can be. It is hard, very hard to adjust my mind into this new system. I wouldn't never even start modding rF if I once didn't take a closer look to its file structure that made me say "ooh, so this is how it is built". This is especially true when talking about car modding. You had all physics the files loose there, just waiting for editing. This is now gone with rF2, completely gone.

When you have mind set of a modder like I do, you look at the games with different view point. You look how it is constructed and what is the logic behind all. What are the options for you to mess with the game. rF1 was very transparent in this meaning, it was fun to learn how to mod it.

 

one disadvantage i see.
rf1, so many mod bugs have been resolved by non-modders helping find them, not only discovering bugs by just using the mod and reporting the issues found, but by being able to sift thru loose files and examine or edit things on the fly... or drop a new file outside the mas for testing, this luxury has been lost.
"most" testers will have no desire to fumble with this packaging system.

 

I don't dreaming !! There are a Chevron B16 !! I'm so impatient

 

Speaking as a very small time converter, (2 tracks released for GTR Evo plus a couple for private use that I never got permission to release.) I think the problem with rf2 is it's difficult to just tinker with.
With rf1 I started fiddling with a few car and track files in notepad and then loading up the game to see what they did and from that the knowledge grew quite quickly. Within a few days I had my own mods made up of different cars that I'd adjusted the hdv files for to even them out a bit. Okay it was simple stuff, but it was quite easy to get a mod performing the way I wanted. Within time I'd started playing with the AI and learnt how to sort out the path they drove if they didn't quite take a corner right. Finally I wanted a couple of tracks in gtr evo so I learnt how to convert and sort out the timing and lights so it all worked properly.

The old gmotor2 games were pretty easy to get into because of the loose file structure, and I'm not keen on what we have now. I guess the quote above about lacking the will to learn something new is true (I will take the time to learn the basics when the game goes gold, but at the moment I'm on GTR2 purely because I can run a championship with the AI in it.) , but I do feel it's more difficult for amatuers like me to tailor things to our liking.

As for bad mods, well everyone has to start somewhere. My first release for gtr evo was pretty complete but there were a couple of tiny problems. Luckily someone who'd downloaded the track new how to fix them and told me what I had to do. It's a learning process. Yes, they may be releasing bad mods today, but later on, once they've learnt the craft, they may give us some real class.

 

there are a lot more rf2 beta testers and modders than in rf1beta.
your comparison is invalid.

 

The packaging system isn't the cause of the lack of user generated content. While it's not perfect it's not that big of a problem.

In the graphics department there weren't that much changes. Sure there are now animations and the real road stuff but in the end it's pretty much the same like before. Also you may want to increase the quality of your car/track (I hope) which will takes more time than the typical rF1 quality car/track.

Physics stayed mostly the same so far EXCEPT the new tiremodel. And that's a BIG problem right now. The model itself is great but as a modder you don't have any proper data. Especially for racing tires. You could spend a lot of money to buy those tires, slice them up and get at least some of the data you'll need, but in the end you're at least stuck with the material properties. Nobody can tell which material were used just by looking at a sliced up tire. Also the chances to get the chance to buy a racing tire are pretty low. I would guess in at least 8 of 10 cases you won't find the tire you need for your mod.

So far nobody knows for sure how a racing tire is built. You can now build it like a typical radial tire but that's most certainly not how a racing tire is built. So it's a guessing game right now. That compared with the lack of tools (you have to edit the tgm by hand) and the pretty long time to build the tire in the ttool is really time consuming and frustrating if you want to get it right.

While I appreciate the effort to create a really realistic tire model it's not usable for a modder right now. Unless you're working full time on your mod...

 

Because it's 2012, it's rF2 and there's 7 years of experience with modders that ISI can(or could) rely on (an evolution of a working title, which motivated modders around the globe). So nobody expects hundreds of mods or cars right now. However the beta is out since several months, it was supposed to be a "modders beta" and there are pratically no new cars around. (even not in early beta)
So somehow I understand that some people were expecting a bit more content, especially a few months after the title was supposed to go Gold... It seems that the modding system is still in an early stage and that modders do not start their work.
Commercially speaking this a strange move in my eyes from ISI. Imagine if you had already lots of mods(at least announced or in beta) when RF2 goes Gold! Wouldn't this be a nice sales argument?
Even this will again raise a massif war: on this forum: payable access to beta since over 8 months... no mods out there, modding system not ready (> even if RF2 goes gold in 3 months, there won't be any good mods as modders do not start to work / some even tend to say that won't mod on rf2), very limited content offered by ISI. Honestly, with some very promising racing titles (simulations as well) on the way, I think it will become very interesting to see if Rf2 will have the same success than the first title... Not everybody will buy all titles, so the first one that brings a good game might have a big advantage...

 

I disagree erale..

First of all, it's not true that it's pretty much the same like before.Tracks are different in many aspect, not just the real road. There're new shaders, new approach for decals, grass and trees. The mesh for the track have now different requirements and specs. The AIW is different. The light system is completely new and different with the HDR and the time to time transition...plus there are animations. The only thing is the same is how to approach a building and the terrain...the rest is different.

Idem for the car side; The new tire model is not the only difference with rF1. There is the new engine model, the new turbo, the animated driver, different shaders, fresnels and reflections, there're new parameters into physics for many areas and the new approach for the modeling.

Future mods will require tons of data about everything, not just tires.

 

I wrote that more from a car perspective. On the track modding side there might be more changes. But still the biggest problem for me is the new tire model. Or put it that way: we have a new feature that requires accurate data that we don't have. Plus it takes a lot of time to edit your tgm. Not even speaking of the time you need to build your lookup table.

Sure there are the new engine model, but I think as soon as we get any documentation (it's still WIP) it won't be as frustrating as the new tire model. You won't have to compile your engine for hours.

Also I don't see any problems in the new shaders for the cars. You can easily tweak your fresnel settings in devmode, write down your desired settings and reexport them in max. It's not like you have to export them 500 times to check every new setting in game.

If our community would have some decent coders we could write some tools of our own to save us some time editing the tgm and other physics stuff. But we're still stuck in stone age editing every line by hand...

 

So are we talking a mods in general or good mods? I could throw in a mod with car and track in one day, easily. It would not be the best mod out there, but it would be possible. And to be honest, I am little surprised that we haven't seen such mods yet with rF2. If you want to make good mod however, then it is totally different thing.

Main reason why we don't get mods anytime soon is just simple: Unfinished features and risk of constant change in game code. Nobody wants to make same thing over and over again. I have did that with my mod for rF2, but now I am just waiting for gold. No idea of trying to guess in which direction this game goes.

 

Yeah. Talking about the OP you're right for sure.