Feel vs physics - Friends or foes?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kknorpp001, Aug 18, 2012.

  1. Kknorpp001

    Kknorpp001 Banned

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    I am getting contradictory info on this so let's have it out! LOL
     
  2. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    It all comes down to what you personally want. If you want something that "feels good" then go for a sim that gives you that. If you want a sim that "has real physics" then go for a sim that has that. With luck in the end we will find one that has both. :)
     
  3. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    The question is a paradox unless you're talking about "arcade" vs "sim". If you're talking about simulators the two components are connected. No friends nor foes, just 2 components of the same simulation process.
     
  4. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    But good feel doesn't necessarily come from good physics. FFB plays heavily into that too.
     
  5. rhamm

    rhamm Registered

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    Less filling
     
  6. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    Tastes Great!
     
  7. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    Thing is what is good physics :p

    You might have a simulator that simulates some aspects of reality very well and others not so well.

    You might have a simulator that does not line up to reality in terms of direct numbers but it matches up in terms of depth and consistency.

    In the end a simulator is trying to be an analog to reality in an abstract medium.


    I guess a better question to ask of a simulation would be

    1) is it valid as a training tool
    2) how enjoyable is it to drive
    3) How close does it replicate the experience of driving a real car

    With 3 you hit a problem in that many people experience even a real car different dependent on skill level and just the subjective nature of the human condition.


    I would agree with Tuttle though if you had a simulator that was spot on then it would feel as good as its physics as they both go together , its not a choice between one or the other.
     
  8. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    Aren't 3 & 1 the same?
    To validate it as a training tool you would have to know how the real thing feels and then compare it.

    I wonder how much we ourselfes can spoil the feel?
    I mean, setup your wheel incorrectly, have some game-settings wrong, load up a completely retarded setup whilst on a lag-invested server with crappy FFB when you have pc-issues to begin with and i'm pretty sure the 'feel' a sim wants to provide is never going to happen in the first place.
    Yeah i know, i'm exaggerating abit :p

    I've sat down behind friends pc's and played sims and it just feels wierd and crap. mainly because of their personal settings, they love it, they are used to it and the sessions where too short to get anything out of it for me.
     
  9. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    Some times a training tool can be less realistic / harder / specifically focused compared to the real thing to make it a better training tool.

    Yah there are so many ways for people to mess things up/move away from the intended simulation evan things as basic as FOV.

    In the end many people are playing on tiny screens cheepo FFB wheels so its far from realistic regardless of the quality of the software.

    When you look at professional simulators allot of the detail is in the hardware rather than the software, granted the comercail software is not "bad" im just saying its a 50/50 split between the software and hard ware where as home users its 95% software 5% hardware.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2012
  10. mikem

    mikem Registered

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    I think we're still a bit behind on what FF can eventually achieve. If you haven't already, it's best to start by reading Leo Bodnar's great argument regarding current FF wheel technology: Why FF in Simulations does not work

    Those familiar with Leo Bodnar's take on FF wheel knows that his is based on Servo Motor- the same type of motor used in CNC machine which totally unlike the motors that are currently being used in wheels like the G25/G27, T500RS, Fanatec CSR-E and CSW (all of which use motors from drills and RCs). What you end up in Leo's FF setup is a precision component especially when matched with appropriate driver and controller.

    Add to that a power supply that's almost twice the amount afforded by the best midrange wheel- e.g. the G25/G27 has max power supply of 42W, CSR-E/CSW is 120W and 160W for the T500RS- what you end up getting is a wheel that's 7 times the strength of a G25/G27. To put it in some perspective- the T500RS is measured at twice the torque (Thanks to TechAde) of a G25/G27.

    Maybe a bit off topic but here's an example of "steer by wire application" using Servo Motor based steering wheel (imagine in the future when you have a remote tire/tread machine setup that work in sync to the sim software simulating not only real tire behaviour but also how it relates to actual (laser-scanned) terrain):



    I'm sure many have seen Leo's wheel in videos so I'd refrain from showing another one.

    Most of us are using wheels and getting FF that's geared towards various compromises- anything from hardware limitations to safety measures. And because of these limitations certain effects are reduced and others added to make the whole experience a bit more realistic in feel. Like theoretical physics, it's not quite the pinnacle of reality so my view is that most sim developers do their best to tailor to what's considered realistic enough to be fun yet challenging. Although I'm sure there are those who'd disagree, the best approach for now is to make the best effort to adapt, perhaps understand and have fun. And I'm sure in a few more years, the technology will improve enough that fun itself is guilt-free.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2012
  11. SLuisHamilton

    SLuisHamilton Banned

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  12. Skynet

    Skynet Registered

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    +1, loved Leo's ffb plugin for rf1 and was facsinated by his article on ffb.
     
  13. feels3

    feels3 Member Staff Member

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    I want to feel good physics :rolleyes:
     

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