Is there any point in us reporting bugs?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pax, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. SLuisHamilton

    SLuisHamilton Banned

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    Besides disagree with Tim Wheatley many times about stuffs , i don´t think Tim Wheatlhey in persona is responsible for this. he is just doing his job as ISI employee.
    ISI´s image it is create by entire ISI itself.
    I doubt other people (or majority) from ISI staff disagree with the way Tim Weathley runs the forum.
     
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  2. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    The forum represents a minority, of that, a small group of basement dwellers dominate the posts and anything ISI does is gold to them.

    The reality is Tim's posts can be rude, he comes off as a prick sometimes, if you call him on it then he threatens to ban. It is what it is but I don't think this image plays well for them. There is no reason for an ISI employee to be rude to any customer that is suggesting a simple improvement. At least consider an improvement to the process instead of making excuses.
     
  3. 88mphTim

    88mphTim racesimcentral.net

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    The process, is the process. It's not going to change, no matter how many names you call me, panigale.

    You obviously have little experience at these forums if you think it is common for me to threaten banning, but I will pass that off as a lack of knowledge.

    In any case, the thread is answered. If people want to make something offensive out of what I said in plain text, which carries no tone, so be it. There's nothing I can do about that, but I am quite shocked that saying we appreciate the testers turns to being something offensive.

    Truth is, a bad experience on the forums affects me for days. It isn't something I enjoy and I don't like this kind of interaction, but if I feel someone is beginning to negatively effect our community, they're out of here.
     
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  4. buddhatree

    buddhatree Registered

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    Sorry, I'm an attic dweller :)

    Way to get everyone on your side by calling use names LOL :D

    You must be new here if you think Tim goes around threatening to ban people. That simply isn't the case.
     
  5. Christian Rosén

    Christian Rosén Registered

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    ^^

    LOL, i just wonder how the &%¤# Tim are supposed to reply without sounding arrogant if that reply is arrogant!? He just states the fact about this issue, short and concise. Im just happy that there are someone from the inside replying at all!:rolleyes:
     
  6. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    And when we, the community, were having bad experience on the forums in the past, mostly about lack of communication with ISI, where were you with your "but if I feel someone is beginning to negatively effect our community, they're out of here"? Oh, but that would mean, a few guys from ISI staff would be banned, right? ;-)

    You also often slightly twist others words meaning and show it in a different light like in this case, with Maxym. You seem to behave like you have absolutely no idea, what he talks about and because of that, in the end, you gave him a ban... just because he was right :)
    And yeah, call me arogant too or whatever (and whatever makes you feel more happy, more mean or feeling "in power" on this forum) but that's how it is Tim.
    And that's the reason why I decided to stop reporting bugs. I felt it was just useless and I was just wasting my time.
    Like Maxym said many times - there are dedicated tools (easy to implement and to manage) for bug tracking and I also don't understand, why they are not used here.
     
  7. erale

    erale Registered

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    Why should a developer use these tools in public? How many serious developers do you know that give any registered member in their forum the chance to see a detailed status on any issue? Doesn't make sense at all.

    ISI does look at various bug reports in the forums. There are enough examples were you can see that ISI notices those bugs and fixes them. Just don't expect them to spend 5 hours a day to discuss with us in the forums. Or would you rather have them talk to you instead of fixing stuff?

    Just use the according subforums to report the bugs. Give a nice description what's happening and how to reproduce that bug. That will help more than creating those mimimimi-threads.

    And also we should all except that there might be more important stuff than a bug that's bothering maybe 5 people out there. So just because not every tiny unimportant issue is fixed in the next public release doesn't mean it's not on their list.
     
  8. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    Erhm... please, reread posts in this thread, as you seem to miss the point or just not fully understand what we are talking about.
     
  9. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    1 - There's nothing wrong with the current way of reporting bugs, it's simple, it's easy...nuff said!

    2 - ISI staff do post occasionally if they need specific help tracking a bug.

    3 - Tim does have a certain tone in some of his posts, I've noticed it too, he can come across a bit rash at times. 95% of the time his ban threats are justified, the odd one here and there has left me wondering before though.

    4 - I'm much more concerned with exactly where the modding system is going, still no word from ISI about the specifics which surely they must know about now....talking about exclusion of certain files from mas files etc.

    5 - if it all gets a bit too much on these forums then do what I do....actually play rfactor 2!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2012
  10. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Actually, anyone making just a cold statement may come across... cold :)

    Usually we add emotions to somebody's statement ourselves, depending on our current mood and "level of disagreement" with that person. This is worth keeping in mind because it helps actually talking to people instead of arguing with them.
     
  11. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    Rigs of Rods does use open bugtracker but then again it is open software, rFactor is not open software, it is property of ISI and is different from open development nature of some other projects.

    Maybe it could be that there are expectations of open development because of public beta and as these expectations are not met, it raises criticism ?

    There could be also alternative, nobody would be having a go with rF2 at the moment if it would be done like rF1.

    Of course ISI will evaluate their gains and losses with this public beta approach and make their decisions from these experiences in future. I doubt highly that they are willing to go for open development.

    Few betas that I have taken part of have been much worse, some did not have even bug reports forum, just one for problem reports which were not answered at all and some betas did not see much of any improvements at all before going gold with exact same problems as beta.

    So things could be worse, maybe they could be better, but there are more to be balanced off than what we testers want, there are some things they don't like to let out of house, etc.


    Sure, many things are such that they would be nice, but reality is that ISI does things way they do and one can think whatever they like from it, but nothing is probably going to change way ISI does things unless it can be backed up with enough economical benefit as after all ISI is company and company's function is to make money to pay salaries and gain funding for future development so they can stay in business and not being run over by competition. If ISI sees no financial advantage of bugtrackers or open development, then they won't do it.

    If they have been in business from 1995 or so, they must have been doing something right, they can also choose to go with route that is not most profitable that fits their view of what ISI should be, like doing simulations instead of mobile games.

    As ISI had done away quite well (financially) before without public testing and without public bug tracking, what is the leverage why ISI should be doing public bug tracking now, what else it could give than easier reporting of bugs to public testers? Remember that they could probably do rF2 fine without public beta as they have been able to do numerous other titles, so what is that extra that they would gain? If answer is better bug reports, they really don't need those, they could probably do without any bug reports, it is just a bonus for them, so is there any real weight for that argument that public bug tracker would be better?

    That is point of view if I look situation as outsider with business eyes and I can't see how I could 'sell' bug tracker to ISI.

    Of course, Nokia big guys thought that Android will be no thread as they are so much more advanced at time Android became public, look Nokia now.

    With forums, one should remember also that message is not same as saying it face to face. If face to face communications message is relayed with 100%, studies show that written message is only 7%, so 83% chance to miss meaning or other way misinterpret message (source: Tampere University of Applied Sciences, teacher education), add different cultures and languages to that and it is miracle that we can actually even communicate. Now try that when you are tired :eek:
    That is just something often forgotten and then text is taken as 100%, which leads to mess.

    Sure it would be also nice that remember me would work as I end up logged out when typing messages constantly, ctrl-a ctrl-c saves again...
     
  12. Satangoss

    Satangoss Registered

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    Citizens are more deported than politicians are impeached, it's what it's. There’s no symmetry in democracy. I also dislike how the (potential) bug reports threads are treated (if developers have not 5 seconds to have a flag or feedback for the OP, how could they have several minutes to evaluate a detailed report as the Clio’s gearing properly?) but that’s the process.

    They didn’t promise to give feedback for each possible bug report, so the reporters have to be aware about that before try to contribute.
     
  13. Favio

    Favio Registered

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    You have too much patience Tim, remarkable...
     
  14. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    Wow, I missed just one thread and its mayhem in here...

    +1 for above post and I think that some people excuse themselves for being plain rude by saying they are customers!
    I wonder in which proffesion anybody could stand such insults as Panigale feels free to say! I would throw a customer like that out of the window anytime!
    Im really pissed of this guy's insults especially, because I gave him positive reputation just some minutes ago, just before seeing this!
    As for Maxym, well...regardless of what Lesiu says, he has not been attacked by Tim as far as I can remember, Tim always warned him to stick to the conversation and not get personal, but he repeatedly tried to provoke Tim into fights.

    Reason im saying all this, is that I feel (and its the second time Im saying this) that this forum, despite the fact that it is owned by the company which produces the sim we discuss here, has minimal inderference from modderator responcible for it, thats Tim, who makes great work here and he should take credit for that, than been attacked and not respected for his behaviour.

    I take my chances of being called a fanboy (lol thats nice at my age actually) but IMO some things must be said with their names, otherwise we pretend we are ostriches.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2012
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  15. buddhatree

    buddhatree Registered

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    +1
     
  16. Favio

    Favio Registered

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    The way I see it, the problem is that they complain all the time, but with that angry attitude, it's annoying, no one force them to buy the beta.
    Everyone can suggest changes or report bugs, but why so angry?, I don't understand.
     

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