Will rF2 have brake fade/failure or tired engines in longer races?

rF1 has brake fade and brake failure.

If the brake temperature is outside the operating range, the brake power is reduced by 50%.

Brakes can fail but on most mods the modders don't set the wear rates high enough that you basically never run out of brakes. One mod that did it quite well was the 1993 F1 mod and FSONE 2009. I remember we ran a 1993 race at Hockenheim and I had to take it easy in the big braking zones to make sure I had enough by the end. Some other more haphazard drivers didn't and sure enough their left front brake failed sending them careering into the wall at nearly unabated speed.

Again, I think it's a case of modders not utilising the tools they have available.

 

Thx, playlife, I have never seen that, but I guess I haven't been playing the right mods. I didn't think rF1 had brake fade or failure.

 

I was specifically talking about F1 with my comments about braking. I do maintain that no modern race series uses gears to slow the car down however. For the people saying 100% braking is only brief, check out this on board of vettel. Before anyone brings up the fact it's Monaco, it's exactly the same for silverstone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6H9HtL-AzA

 

What is that brake indicator hooked up to though? Is it a pressure sensor, a travel sensor? 100% would work totally differently on both. Or it could even be just an on/off switch, because on that video I can't see it being anything other than on or off at any point.

 

Knew someone would say this, the telemetry if you ever watch F1 is very sophisticated, he really is braking 100% when he hits them. The all or nothing driving style is very common in modern F1. If you stop and think for a second, then 100% of travel is 100% pressure. Are you trying to say that when you press the brake pedal to it's maximum travel you don't have maximum pressure? because that is ridiculous.

 

Yes, if you push the pedal to it's maximum travel you get maximum pressure, because naturally you can't move the pedal any more. But on the other hand a hydraulic brake doesn't inherently have such a thing as 100% pressure. If you extend the travel/modify the ratio, the only real limiting factor is how hard the driver can push the pedal. The system might well be set so that you can't actually get to 100% travel, not with human strength at least. And from what I understand the brakes are usually set so that there's some overhead in the travel, so that it doesn't bottom out too soon. Stefano Casillo (you might have heard of him, he heads Kunos Simulazioni) mentioned this disparity while discussing the "2FMSH" scandal in iRacing:

The telemetry in F1 cars is very sophisticated, but I'm not at all sure how sophisticated the telemetry they send out to the TV people is. Another reason why I think it might be a simple on/off indicator for the TV broadcast are the sudden stabs and double blips that happen a couple of times. Going from no braking at all to 100% maximum pressure you can manage, back totally off and again back to 100% maximum pressure, with all the necessary pedal travel included, in the span of something less than one tenth of a second is a pretty neat feat. An amazing one actually. More likely explanation though is that he just stabbed the throttle twice, not going full power either time.

I could be wrong though, but I'd have to see better evidence to support it.

 

What Andretti said is a bit unfortunate, I' m sure he didn't actually mean it exactly the way it sounds. He just meant brakes' don't have just this one purpose (slowing the car down).

Brakes ARE there to slow the car down.. You should brake very hard at high speeds, then as you go slower and slower downshift and gradually use less brake force. But relying more on engine braking rather than wheel brakes is a nonsense when racing because you never know how exactly the engine is braking in exact moment. With brakes you know it.

 

Thats it! And reckless drivers punished very soon

 

Btw naturally, you do not want to keep 100% brake force in the whole braking distance.
What you do want though, is to keep as close to 100% tyre grip (actually more like 105% but lets simplify this) during the whole braking distance (never happens of course, unless your name is Senna and first name starts with A.). Since engine braking differs depending on rpm, relying purely on engine braking can't stop the car as quickly as possible.

 

Yes it's known as degressive braking, excellent vid on using the brakes (which took me forever to find again) here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INyCAg0XORQ&feature=player_embedded

I could be wrong though, but I'd have to see better evidence to support it.

No you are in fact correct, lol. I checked through vids from many years that the TV display has been used and yeah, it's like an on/off switch. You know what confused me? The TV display made for rFactor, lol, it had progressive display for the brake pedal.

 

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regardless of anything to do with rf2 - wow what a drive that was - makes me dizzy just watching - crazy fast-

 

In touring cars they use engine braking. I can't remember who it was, but there was an interview with a BTCC driver (I think it was Jason Plato) and he said, when talking about using the engine for braking that everyone does it. If you watch the onboards, it's pretty obvious that they do too.

 

Just looked and yeah, you're right. I'm amazed because everything I've ever heard, and this is from many many different highly placed sources, say with some weight behind it that gears are never used to slow down the car. I wonder if it's the shorter length of touring car races, so the gearbox doesn't matter as much?

p.s I guess my real issue was from the suggestion that gears alone could be used to brake, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Using the gears to assist the brakes in some small capacity in certain categories of racing I agree with. It's the whole thing that some 'sim' drivers do of banging down the gearbox to slow down. This happens in games with less than perfect engine damage modelling of course. I really hate that.

 

Nobody says they aren't using engine braking at all. But I don't believe it's the main braking force, at all times, be it F1 or BTCC. Engine braking alone is hardly going to provide stopping force at the limit of tyres.
Somebody here said that maybe they are using engine braking more nowadays than before but I would expect the opposite; if we look back in 50s, brakes back then were very weak, engines and transmissions could brake a lot and tyres had low grip. With those cars engine braking could suffice.

However the less powerful engine (or less transmission losses and other losses) and the better tyres, the more you need to use brakes. As in modern cars.

 

Exactly. Engine braking is essential. I use it all the time though it often takes 5 or so laps before I can use it really effectively (my own limitations). But I just can't believe that you can use it in the manner I've seen online, braking zone after braking zone, bang bang bang bang bang into second gear with the engine screaming for mercy but suffering no damage at all.

 

This is absolutely true. Same with older road cars. F1 definately doesn't use engine braking, as the brakes and aero do such a good job of stopping the car, and the brakes need to be worked often in order to keep heat and for them to work as a result. I think people get confused with F1 in particular because of the speed coming down the gearbox, it looks like they are using it to slow the car.

 

Sorry, but you don´t use engine braking. Even if you are going >200 the effect of engine braking is quite small in a racecar. Brakes are for braking, not engine, not gearbox. Knowledge from where? Interviews of WTCC and 24h Nurb. (so, sprint and endu), own experiences on track and talking with drivers and racemecanics.

And that you have to lift of the brakes as you get slower isn´t only because of aerodynamics, it´s just physics as the negative acceleration while braking gets closer to infinite (don´t know if it´s the correct terms in english). But as Grip stays (more or less) constant, you have to adapt the negative acceleration. Effect is bigger in all cars relying a lot on aerodynamics off course.

 

Maybe it is possible to use engine braking very effectively in rf2 if you downshift and brutally overrev, and the sim will just brake because you have super high rpm.
If that is the case, its a huge flaw which must be fixed. Absolutely no way you can brake this way with any real car.

 

He obviously uses brakes before every corner...

 

well... its both isnt it.
u brake and then downshift and brake again and...
No u cant effectively brake without brakes lol, engine will not have a chance for surviving.