Next Update.....?

I mean the same thing I meant back when I posted this on an older thread:

From what I have seen in my tests the situation hasn't changed in any of the updates. The tyres only heat up when there is some slip induced. Locking the brakes (or threshold braking so that they keep spinning but slide a bit), turning the wheel too much (understeer), sliding the rear (oversteer) or accelerating too fast (wheelspin), slip seems to be the only thing that heats up the tyres. Like I said to Michael, you can accelerate, brake or corner very very hard indeed, but if you're gentle with the controls and don't induce any slip, the tyres don't heat up.

I've tried this in every build and it has always worked pretty much identically. It is also repeatable. I can for example drive 5-8 laps pushing the car a bit too much constantly (inducing slip in every corner on purpose), and the temps usually go up to around 90 degrees, minimum (of course the peaks reach higher, due to the temp gauge showing surface temps). Five laps should also be plenty enough time to work up heat in the tyres. If I then back off a bit and make sure I don't induce any slip (carefully controlling my braking and steering input, as well as the throttle) but still pressing hard, times going down less than a second per lap on Mills C, the temps come crashing down to under 40 degrees in about two laps, I've actually timed it and it takes just about equally long to cool them down by driving 20-30 kmh and going really fast and just avoiding slippage. This tells me that only slip heats the tyres, or if loading them does heat up, it is set way too low.

Michael already confirmed that it isn't working/implemented yet back then, and if the behavior has changed from what it was back then, then the change has been really darn subtle. I did notice the following lines in the ReadMe.txt:

I'm not expecting them to finish the tyre model totally by the next update, I'd just want to see this aspect of it working better. I hate being forced to consciously slip the tyres constantly to work up the temps, when just driving in a straight line should raise them significantly (not to full working temp but still), and the grip is compromised when running on cold tyres.

So yeah, that's what I meant with that.

 

I've done some testing on this as well and I say you are spreading B.S. The front tires heat when braking hard. The rear tires heat when on throttle. The GT endurance mod the tires have a rolling resistance heat. I really don't understand why you are trying to spread lies. I'm not saying the tire model is finished but it is doing things that you say is not happening.

 

You are a bit fast when it comes to jumping on people. I would have preferred you say something like "Do you have any evidence to back up what you're saying? I'm not seeing anything like that in my game." or another similar approach. But anyway:

The problem might be unique to my computer (though I have reinstalled the game twice, wiping everything clean both times and have not touched any files after that), and if it is I apologize for spreading as gospel truth something which is a bug on my system. Nevertheless I bolted in my wheel (been laying in the corner for about two weeks now) and made a simple proof of concept run. I took the 370Z, loaded up Spa, left the speed limiter on which limited me to 99-100 kph and drove around the track for half an hour. I only braked a bit (veeeeeeery carefully) when approaching the final hairpin and only lifted in the Eau Rouge, otherwise I was pedal to the metal for the whole lap, and tried to navigate corners with as slight an input as I possibly could, so as to isolate rolling resistance the best I could. Ambient temperature was the default 29C, weather was sunny.

Now, when I drive my car for half an hour on the freeway going at a constant 100 kmh and bring myself to a careful halt, my tyres are very noticeably warmer (not hot, but much warmer) than they were when I started. And as the car sits outside I can only assume the tyres are at the ambient temperature when starting out (or higher if the sun hits them directly for a longer period of time). The warming up of the tyres is noticeable no matter what the ambient temperature is, and I've tried it @ around 29C in real life. Let's also take into consideration that the normal road tyre has a heck of a lot less rolling resistance and grip than a racing tyre. The tyres in the 370Z started out at 25C from the pit, and quickly rose to the ambient temperature of 29C during the first lap. In the next half hour the highest reading I got from the tyres was 30C, and it kept flashing 29C occasionally, so it was just barely 30C (or perhaps even 29.6C, depending on if they use floating point numbers and how they're rounded). One degree of heat from half an hour of driving at a constant 99-100 kmh around corners much tighter than those on a real freeway in racing car with effective aerodynamics and racing tyres. If there is heat buildup from rolling resistance, then it is set pretty low.

Also tried the 370Z on Mills C (I think, the shortest layout anyway...), first going round the track slow enough to not exceed 30C in the tyres, then blast the final straight as fast as I can, hitting around 200 kph (was paying more attention to the temperatures) before the hump, breaking just before the 200 marker (Megane stops faster so I could do it after the 200 marker in it) and bringing the car to a dead halt before the turn-in point for the first corner. I tried to brake as hard as I could without starting to lock up the tyres. The temps went up a bit, from 30C to 32C in my best go (threshold braking is tough) and 30C to 35C in my worst. If I locked the tyres a bit they quickly shot up to the region of 60-70-80C. Then I went round the track harder, purposefully turning the wheel too much so as to scrub heat into the front tyres. The tyres quickly cooled down during the straight, if I had around a 100 degrees in the final corner, in two gos I had 70C when I reached the hump, then braked like before. In the first go the temps went from 70C to 72C, in the second from 70C to 69C.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do this, usually you get microslip (you start to hear the screeching) which can heat the tyres up about 5 degrees, but doable. Planting the brake with the ABS on high is actually worse, you get constant little chirping and the temps go from 30C to 40C. I did brake hard, bringing the car from around 200 kmh to a dead stop before the turn in point when starting to brake just before the 200 marker, so it's not that, distance with full brakes with ABS on high was perhaps only a meter or so shorter. And from the videos of DTM cars I've seen with real time surface temps of the tyres, even a slight tap on the brakes or a very shallow turn is enough to raise the temps of the tyres from 90C to over a 100C, and braking hard but still without any audible tyre noises (or very very slight tyre noise) can easily raise the temps over 30C.

Last but not least I drove six laps on a totally green track (reloaded the game, reasonable amount of laps to warm up the tyres I thought) around Mills trying to go fast but keep slip to a minimum, though some chittering and sliding was unavoidable. I haven't played rF2 seriously (and wasn't too serious now) for about 3 weeks so I wasn't at my best, but in those 6 laps I got times in the high 1:17 region (not exactly blistering but not pottering around either), and the last three of my laps were -0.5, -0.8 and -1.1 so I was increasing my pace all the time. I think I should be able to get at least somewhere near the operating temps of the tyres in six laps, but when crossing the finish line my temps were 44, 48, 45 and 46 (LF, RF, LR and RR respectively). Interestingly, on the fifth lap (which was over a second slower than the sixth) two tyres (RF and RR) were over 50 degrees when crossing the finish line, so by going noticeably faster I was cooling my tyres down. Seems counterintuitive to me.

Hopefully this is just a bug in my system, but still, I'd appreciate if you didn't immediately brand me as a liar in the future if I post something you don't agree with. This is indeed beta and weird things can happen.

 

We are living in a era of instant gratification. Patience is a virtue not practiced as much as it once was. The thing is, no mater how much one whines about updates...they will happen when they happen..when they are ready and not a moment sooner. Software, especially simulation software, is extremely complicated and takes a lot of time to get it right. The fact that it is taking this much time for an update, tells me that ISI is putting in their best effort to get it right...and it is not easy or quick to do. They do not want to release a bug ridden product, that would cause more harm than taking a long time to update.

Relax, take a deep breath, find something else to do, there must be a million things one can do...how about hiking, playing baseball, swimming, whatever...you know...doing stuff outside the house away from this screen.... doing something real... ;-)

 

Amen, that's what I've been doing for the past three months, only briefly checking the new builds for major changes and otherwise waiting patiently for the release. =)

 

Ah, you have achieved the level of true enlightenment sir jubuttib, you have discovered balance, the only and narrow path to happiness. Your karma is strong, you will do well in this world...and probably kick some serious butt when the next release comes out.... Take care, I'm patiently waiting and checking in now and then too.... and in the mean time...I still like rF1 just fine... Mike

 

I'm beginning to think that this experiment with a large scale public beta test....may not be a good idea... I suspect that ISI folks may be beginning the wonder the same after all the inappropriate remarks they have been subjected to. If it were me...after this, I think I would only use a select group of volunteer very experienced users to beta test, a lot of them perhaps, but a select group that understands the challenges of software development and who want to participate and make a useful contribution without prejudging and wasting their time... That is how it seems to me. I wouldn't subject myself to this sort of thing and spend a lot of time trying to patiently explain and answer all the off the wall remarks and allegations like I have read herein... all the time doing an outstanding job and being beaten up at the same time... I know how that feels, and I do not like it any more than I suspect our friends at ISI do.. Perhaps a full scale public beta period might best be done when the product is thought to be ready for market... I'm done, I'll check back in a month or so...

 

Let me get this straight before you all chime in about patience and so on. I dont particularly care if rF2 is never released. The amount of money I have spent on it is minimal, and my life goes on. I have enjoyed my experience so far. I havent jumped in on the "impatience train" to date (this thread was initially in jest).

However - the amount of time that has passed between updates is now actually testing my faith in ISI. Since I know that they also "wanted" to have an update out by now, it makes me wonder what is going on - and if there is something serious holding up progress. Since ISI have a policy of "zero information exposure", I have no choice but to be left wondering.

Has one of the unlimited number of pitfalls that can assault a small developer taken over? Possibly - how would we know?

We are now approaching 10weeks since last update. That is an ENORMOUS amount of time in alpha/beta world. It is certainly longer than the period allowed to ask for a refund. Imagine buying into this the day after the last update.....you havent seen a single inkling of where the game or company are going. Not. One. Example - by which to judge fairly. If I were in that position, in retrospect and in combination with ISI's "zero information exposure" policy" - I would definately get a refund.

I waited 3 years for rF2. Now I realise it could well be Diable III scale - in the order of decades.

Not mad - just realistic. If ISI want to take so much time between updates, and not release information - then it is no one elses fault but theirs. If you CAN still get a refund - consider it. No aggro - just informed consumers making decisions based upon historical facts.

 

I think with ISI people do need to change their expectations, sure other software companies make sure they release beta updates in set times but thats not to say thats the right way of doing things or the wrong. ISI have their ways with updates, this one maybe delayed for several reasons that we dont know about....again my argument for a few lines of text from someone to "keep us informed" wont go amiss but we all know thats not gonna happen at this stage!

For example the ModiD sytem is widely regarded as being poor, so maybe this update includes a massive change to that area, which would of course take some thorough testing before being released to us. Imagine the outcry if it was rushed out and more bugs and issues were found it could turn people away from RF2 altogether so ISI need to make sure they get it right. Could also be one or two massive bugs which breed other bugs when fixed and deem the update non-releasable, that happens and thats just the way it is.

As for the Refunders I'm sure they'll be back, IMO RF2 is gonna be bigger than rF1 in terms of mods/tracks so they'll all be back at some stage, its just gonna take longer (I think) to get to the "Gold" release of the game so therefore things are pushed back, but thats not a bad thing at all as we all know RF2 is an ongoing project for many years....longer than rF1 so say ISI!

 

I don't know... I have many other things to do so I don't mind waiting for a GOOD update.

Anyway, I agree with those guys who just want to "keep in touch" with the development stage of the software: just some info aobut what they are looking for at the moment. Tires? ModID? New Content?
We are not in the "secret" phase anymore: the software is out for testing, we bought it, we know what is good and what is wrong.

I understand ISI, but a little bit more info could be interesting.

Anyway, let's hope and wait

 

+1

 

I never even thought we would get updates at all before final release.

 

Definitely it is right. First of all because such products are successful (Arma2). Also because customer is satisfied. Nothing more to say.

And that's the point. Since we are customers and beta testers, we should be informed about progress, delays etc. especially in case that ISI goes out of schedule. There are two reasons why to do that
- because it will calm community down
- because it gives idea what about what have been reported, fixed, about priorities... in short in helps reporting things. Any developer knows it.

Of course we may just "believe in ISI". But till now, there are multiple times spoken sentence "we have not promised this, that". So following this way, I'm not ready to believe in something which is not confirmed.

 

Even here we have atheists

no offense

 

Well, it is a beta for modders really. I'am happy about being able to buy the beta instead of them just giving it out to a small dedicated group of modders out there. Thank you ISI for that decision!

For the people who talks about ISI business model and all that regarding the future for RF2, well, I think we all know that they strive for the most realistic simulation up to date so far. So don't use that as a excuse to bash ISI, imo it looks silly. We have the beta, we know what it does allready, how can you make that as an excuse to bash ISI for "WE DON'T KNOW WHICH ROAD ISI WILL TAKE". There is only one road to take really, serious simracing, and the beta delivers that and the future will bring even more serious simracing.

I do want the updates though, cause inside me it still lives an impatient boy =)

 

Nothing offensive pal, but iracing devs were saying the same years ago and till now they have no breaks wear implemented, for a lot of time there was no even fuel consumption. Just a note.

 

That is exactly my gripe. I don't mind waiting for an update, it'll be ready when it's ready, right? But the disappointing thing is how the development is concealed behind a shroud of secrecy. As you said, we are paying customers providing feedback to help ISI help us, but we're not given any insight into how the sim is progressing, what is and isn't being worked on or planned for the future, etc.

As I said in my last post, with the amount of time Tim spends here saying 'we didn't promise this' and 'we never said that', a small post with some information about what is in the works could be made. And as MaXyM highlighted, these updates are what keep the community calm. But I doubt we'll ever receive this quite modest request, since we're now five months into the beta period, it has been said time and time again that more information would be nice, and it never sees the light of day.

Almost every game in a beta phase has a development blog now, whether it's an indie title from someone like Sauropod or Mojang, or a multimillion dollar title from the big boys like Valve or DICE. I don't see why ISI couldn't do the same.

 

in the meantime: replies: 518 / Views: 369,537 and ISI still thinks that it has not benefit for them to inform their paying customers about the progress... sorry but this is amazingly arrogant and show massif lack of respect (or complete lack of communication skills).

 

Wednesday is a good day to update. I'm sure I read somewhere an update was due 2 week ago on friday coming from a dev. Perhaps the update had alot of problems that needed fixing. Anyway I also know I read the car quality is going to look alot better, maybe new shaders or maybe its detail.

 

Absolutely agreed with you, please ISI give us some informations about the devlopment of the beta, ISI is not a secret agency like DEA, FBI or CIA

Personaly i don't care if next update coming in june, july or over, but i just want informations just to trust on you.