AI needs improving

Discussion in 'Wish Lists' started by salvasirignano, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. salvasirignano

    salvasirignano Registered

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    First of all let me say that I am very impressed by rfactor2: it looks great, and the car handling and force feedback are fantastic on the classic F1. :D
    The only downside to it that I can see is that the AI are still not great. They are much improved, but still are very unconvincing.
    Has anyone here played GP4, or VGP3?
    The AI in those games slipstream the car in front, get right under its rear wing, then, without lifting off, pull out of the slipstream and use the extra speed/momentum to pull alongside and outbrake going into the corner.
    I have tested this in rfactor2, at Spa, with its extremely long straights, AI 100% strength and aggression.
    The AI get up to the rear wing of the car in front and then keep lifting off the throttle, and only seek to pull alongside when entering the corner, when they could instead blast past on the straights.
    Will this be improved upon/looked at in future?
    It's been the achilles heel of all ISI/Gmotor2 games, In F1C and GTR2 they pull out too quickly and don't use slipstream, in RF1 and this the AI lift off on the straights.

    I don't want to sound too negative with that post, I love rfactor2, but this is letting it down somewhat :(
     
  2. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    AI is one of the many areas that will get some tender loving care at somepoint (as ISI have said although not in those words!), wheteher thats during Beta or after Full Release f the game is anybodys guess right now. Seems they have some major areas to look at long before AI I think.

    I've noticed the Slipstreaming thing too, happened in rF1 as well.
     
  3. DriverN1

    DriverN1 Registered

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    slipstreaming in rf1 happened as well only when AI had very big advantage in speed. Actually it's not slipstreaming but just diversion :) LOL
     
  4. mclaren777

    mclaren777 Registered

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  5. John DiFool

    John DiFool Registered

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    This has been the bane of multiclass racing in rF1: often you'll see these ridiculous conga lines on the straights as cars in faster classes remain tucked in behind the slower vehicles, all the way down to the next corner, tapping the brake and lifting on the gas all the while. As described above they will typically only make their move right before the straight comes to an end, and not always suceeding. This forces me to crank up the AI speed slider to ridiculous levels to compensate, which means when slower cars aren't around my fellow class competitors are constantly on my bumper. I haven't sprung for the beta yet, and this kind of stuff makes me more likely to keep waiting.
     
  6. GauchoRS

    GauchoRS Registered

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    another point to put the hands on is the AI pitstrategy. I would like to have an

    - option to force AI to do a range of pitstops (e.g. 2 - 3)during race

    - option to do / do not tyres changes

    - wet tyres for wet race start (in beta AI drives only dry tyres)

    - AI should change tyres to wet ones after rain has started during race and back to dry if sun comes out.


    Question: the pitstrategy parameter in .gdb is still working ?

    (nice to have)

    - hotkey to increase/decrease AI strength during session
     
  7. John DiFool

    John DiFool Registered

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    Yes, dynamic pit strategy is a definite wish of mine too. Even if forced to pit late in a race in rF1, they won't ever do stop-and-go's, but invariably take on full fuel and tires (even the AI for Nascar Racing 2003 was more dynamic than that!).
     
  8. RJNL

    RJNL Registered

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    Haven't even touched the AI in the singleplayer for precisely the above mentioned reasons. I would be nice to have functioning AI in the full release. Don't get me wrong in love the beta so far but even games like GP4 that have come out years before rF2's release have better AI. I know it's never been a priority for ISI but I don't think its too much to ask to have some basic AI functionality.

    Not sure if this has been adresed in rF2 but the thing that bothered me most about the AI in rF1 was the flag behaviour. They ignored blue flags and don't even get me started about double waved yellows.
     
  9. salvasirignano

    salvasirignano Registered

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    Well with full course yellows they slow to around 15mph behind an invisible safety car. I appreciate it's still a beta though, and would be very disappointed if the AI didn't get fully reworked and perfected before the final release. There's lots of time yet :)
    You're right, GP4 was a decade ago now, GP3 and F1RS are even older still and don't have the overtaking problem either :rolleyes:
    Hopefully someone from ISI sees this thread! :D
     
  10. greyfox485

    greyfox485 Registered

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    What I would like to see is better consistency in the AI. I ran a number of practice sessions to get the lap times of the AI to where they were competitive with mine. But when I ran a race, I found that I was significantly faster in some sections and equally slower in others. To me it seems that right now, the AI doesn't quite know how to get around the tracks in the most efficient way.
     
  11. bigtabs

    bigtabs Registered

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    Had you changed your setup much? Could it be that your car is simply faster/slower at these points because of this?
     
  12. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    I tried an AI race at Mills in the Meganes. Any pubby server would be proud to host that mess! Yeah the AI is just plain unraceable at this point. I'm confident ISI will fix it and we will be able to have AI racing once the full sim is released- the final.
     
  13. greyfox485

    greyfox485 Registered

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    I am using the default set. In the parts where I'm slower I can understand it just coming down to my driving. But in the sections where I'm faster, it's not just slightly faster. The AI will break in turns that I don't have to. Where I see the biggest difference in speed is in sector 2 of Mills short layout. In the 3 fast left handers, the AI brakes but I only have to lift a little.
     
  14. salvasirignano

    salvasirignano Registered

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    Here's some footage from Grand Prix 4 from one of my other posts..

    It has probably the best AI of any race sim ever released, and is getting on for ten years old now. I have uploaded a few videos of their behaviour, which hopefully you'll have a look at, there are some very realistic behaviours that I think really must be implemented if the AI in rF2 is to be realistic.

    In the first video, you'll see that the AI properly uses the slipstream of the car in front, without lifting off the gas at all (unlike in every other race sim since!) Although perhaps they could stay in the tow maybe a fraction longer and only pull out when a metre or so behind the preceding car?




    The next one shows very very well implemented AI blocking, Panis trying to overtake Irvine but doesn't quite have the power, so he gets back in the slipstream, pulls out again, but Irvine blocks him off.



    The third one shows a pass where Morbidelli easily breezes past Magnussen, then gets back onto the racing line to take the next corner.



    I think I've played every racing sim released since the mid nineties, yet barely any have managed convincing, challenging AI.
    That must mean it's a difficult task to pull off, but there's no point in having a race if faster AI behind you won't overtake, or if they lift off on the straights or fail to slipstream properly.

    If the developers could get the AI to overtake like above, as well as block and defend, then rF2 will surely be the most immersive offline sim ever created.

    Thanks for reading this.
     
  15. Peter Storr

    Peter Storr Registered

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    since this game has awesome plugin capabilities is there any chance we could create our own AI?
     
  16. Yutja

    Yutja Registered

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    Very nice post!
    If ISI would be able to implement this kind of AI behavior, it´d be a dream.
    As some other guy said before, especially in multiclass racing, the AI kills the immersion completly. I hope some resources a put into AI in the future and please don´t say it is unimportant because online is where sim-racing happens. It does to a large part, but still I believe there is a good amount of people who play offline.
     
  17. salvasirignano

    salvasirignano Registered

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    I would be very surprised if it wasn't possible to put AI behaviour like this into rfactor.
    Was there not blocking code in RF1 that got removed at some point?
    It seem that AI in every other game genre, from football games to shoot 'em ups, has improved markedly in the past decade, yet that of racing sims has got worse! :confused:
     
  18. DavidG

    DavidG Registered

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    Whilst the AI seems better in rF2, I’ve seen F1 cars sitting behind F3 cars down Spa’s long straights and not even attempting to go past, which is worrying.

    One thing that some of us have been asking for in all the ISI engined games is the ability to set different AI levels for both qualifying and the race (or to have an overall setting that adjusts the balance between AI qualifying and race speed) . The often vastly different AI performance between the sessions is a major problem for us non-aliens and really spoils the racing for me.

    I also think we need an AI speed adjustment option for every track, so that we can acheive some sort of balance between the various circuits.
     
  19. hdj

    hdj Registered

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    Has anyone else noticed that ISI are keeping very quiet about the AI for rFactor2?

    I'm now concerned that The AI is set for the game release the same as we have in the beta.

    This is really going to spoil what is looking so far as a great improvement on rF1.

    I enjoy online racing as much as anyone but if rF2 modding is going to go the same way as rF1 with lots of Historic F1 mods, Cart mods, GT mods etc then good quality AI is a must !

    for example: the 1979 F1 mod was superb, but offline racing became too frustrating due to the poor AI behaviour. For online the modders made a special edition but levelled the playing field by keeping all car performances roughly equal. I can see the sense in this as nobody is going to want to race online with a dog of car. However for those of us that wanted to recreate the '79 season and use the mod as it was intended the poor rF AI seriously hindered this.

    Hindering modders in this way makes no sense, frustrating the end users even less. If the budget is not there for quality AI then at least give the rF community and modders the ability to adjust and refine the AI to suit. rF1 and rF2beta seem no different in terms of AI.

    It is understandable that graphics and car physics take most of the time and budget. but good AI can only elevate a good sim to a great one. It is also understandable that rF2 is geared 80/20 to online play, but not every customer is able or gifted enough to want to compete there. Surely it makes sense to release this as a fully rounded sim covering both options fully. If the people who mainly play offline aren't being listened to then they will surely vote with their wallets. Can this be sensibly ignored?
     
  20. Vintook

    Vintook Registered

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    I would also like to add, if you are going to charge extra to play online, the offline AI behavior should be top notch. You can have the best physics ever created for a racing game but AI behavior will turn people away from it.
     

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