Sorry if this has been covered somewhere but i cant find anything regarding this aside from people saying it would be nice. Is there / is there going to be turbo modelling in the game that at least somewhat replicates boost threshold and response? Closest thing ive seen was LFS but it was somewhat flawed but still at least represented something. Although im no programmer, ive spent a lot of time with modified turbo cars and never thought this would be overly hard to replicate with a 3 or 4 sets of parameters each no more complex than a torque curve plot. I think it would be an awesome addition which is missing in pretty much every sim, and would allow for some pretty awesome mods... i just think 86 f1 season and group b rally .
They didn't have turbo's in F1 back then . I guess it was an oil pressure gauge or something like that?
Yea would have been oil pressure. I the renault which would be seen as the first real turbo was 78 or 76. Took a few years till everyone else jumped on. Bummer but im sure its not something incredibly hard to implement later.
Hehe, when I read the title something like "speed modelling" a track or car came into my mind, just like all the speed drawing videos on YouTube, rofl. I better had slept tonight.
I'd say it's pretty difficult! I once read an article (anyone know what article I'm talking about?) about the engine and turbo modelling in Richard Burns Rally which really was (and is!) state of the art on that front. With a normally aspirated engine it's relatively easy (very relatively!) to know what power you'll get when you floor it at 5000 rpm. That's not the case with a turbo: you have your engine exhaust gasses driving the turbo, so you have to take into account at wat rpm the turbo was running before you floor it, how much exhaust gasses the engine emits when under 30% throttle at 3000 rpm, at 50% at 4000 rpm, etc. If I'm correct, exhaust is something that isn't modelled/calculated at all in rFactor 1 (and 2?). To properly implement a turbo-powered engine I think you'll have to model the engine more like a real engine (not just a simple torque curve in an engine file as it now) so the exhaust gases can be calculated, and then you can model the turbo. You could ofcourse make a more crude model that takes less parameters into account, like just have an extra curve that tells you how much gasses come from the engine at a certain rpm. But a turbo is a difficult thing, I'm sure thats why it isn't in rFactor 2 yet: no half work done . Disclaimer: this is my very own interpretation on how I would think you'd model a turbo in a sim .
Having modded some engines in rF1, I've seen that most of the calculations are not very sophisticated. No where near RBR style. And I am quite certain they don't have to be. In the end, this is not engine simulation, but racing simulation. If we would do turbo rF1 style, yes you are correct, we would have a a number for how much exhaust gas is emitted at given RPM. And from that we would calculate the turbo element. We could make it little bit more complex by adding exhaust temperature variable, intake temperature variable and possibly even exhaust/intake pressure variable. What you are asking is super-realistic engine simulation to allow turbo, or not any sort of turbo implemention at all. I'd still take the dummy turbo over not turbo at all. EDIT: And no, turbo is not so complicated and mysterious thing - in gaming. But in real world turbo tuning into best possible performance at any given situation, is completely another matter.
Sure but i think you dont need to overcomplicate it. The engine itself isnt modelled, theres just parameters for a torque curve. For the turbo modelling you just need to plot the boost threshold (where and how much boost is able to be made in percentage), response (lag in ms), efficiency (hp per psi). You can calculate fuel usageoff the HP which would just be a multiplication of the efficiency, psi and base torque / engine efficiency. All the rest of the systems effected like heat and reliability the current systems could be used. Things like intercooler efficiency arent necessary as you can just increase the efficiency of the turbo. It would be great to have an actual modelled turbo but i just think its far to complex for even virtual dyno's to replicate let alone in a simulator. I also dont think its necessary, just like its not necessary to model camshaft dynamics or exhaust back-pressure on an aspirated engine any further than the altering the static torque parameters. EDIT - boost threshold would be percentage of maximum available boost
I know the article, and you forgot one key point: With a turbo engine, the gear (=load) affects power output. And what's all this about rF2 not being an "engine simulation, but a racing simulation"? You could just as well say that it's not a "tyre simulation" or a "suspension simulation". Car racing needs engines (soapbox derby excluded), they're what keeps the damn things moving. Engines are pretty darn important part of the simulation and deserve a proper model because what the engine does under different circumstances is kind of a big deal, especially turbo engines since they just work differently from NA engines.
Well its not by a long shot an engine simulation (nor does it need to be), and is not at a point where you could model a dynamic turbo off of it. Whats more is that its not really necessary to have a simulated camshaft, head flow characteristics, not to mention things like the combustion chamber would be far too complex to model accurately. Even more so when you can just alter the torque curve, and maybe throw in some compensation tables for things like heat etc. It doesnt have to be the worlds most accurate simulation of a turbo for it to be implemented. Like johannes said, ill take a fake turbo over none. Things like load as you say can be calculated from throttle position and engine torque. Starting something overly complicated would be a mistake, getting it to work then building on top of it is how things are made.
Engine simulation is definitely something ISI should work on post-release imo. At the moment I've seen rF2 still has canned engine starts. Now that rF2's tyre model is beyond advanced, perhaps devoting some time to other car components is the next step. Bringing everything up to the same level of complexity, overall experience is sure to improve.
yes, I agree. the engine simulation in rF1 was lacking at best. Hopefully, rF2 will see further development in this area if it hasn't already.
1977 British GP JP Jabouille debuted the first turbo F1 car (Renault RS01 Renault-Gordini), also coinciding with Gilles Villeneuve's debut F1 race! He was also an engineer and partly responsible for designing the car. The regulation back then was either a 3000cc naturally aspirated or 1500cc blown (super or turbocharged) engine, no one took advantage of the latter for a long long time, I guess until the technology 'caught up'.
