In the past I used to be against such version of accumulating content for simulations. But as time goes by it gets more and more normalized and no one cares if you worked for 10hours or 400hours to bring some content for everybody to enjoy for free. Whats the point to be modeling (grpahics, physics) XJ13 for 400hours, if higher quality model from another game will be introduced sooner or later, and it will just beat it with whatever ok feeling physics and sounds. Obviously completely nice when it is done with good finishing, with permission and confirmation to be released once implementation is pleasing original author. But I wonder about all these models that has "no father", the models taken "from a friend" and everything else like that that does not involve original authors and owners in the loop of bringing the content up to release. Are they good for the sim ? Why do they have this pattern of being badly done ? And when they do actually get pretty well done, is it still a good thing ? And if people are unable to tell a difference, do they deserve to be told about the difference ? In the past I held an opinion that poorly made rip is the best rip, and rip that is well done is worst rip. Currently I am about to be flipping this opinion upside down, as ports or rips or conversions (or whatever is fitting to call them) are becoming absolutely acceptable and normal by almost 100% of simracers. So they at least could get better physics, and at least smoother graphical finishing for once.
Whilst I won't be supporting rips anytime soon (and there are plenty of like-minded simracers) I can understand your frustration. Just recently another ripped track appeared on Steam Workshop that was pointed out by a member who was then shouted down by a couple of clowns. It doesn't help when certain sites are ok with having them and it's bad when they make it onto the workshop. I have no idea how to stop them but if we roll over and start accepting them I can't see reputable modders hanging around waiting for their hard work to be pinched. Maybe if we had a topic where we can report any rips we find so people can then go on masse to the offending sites and give them hell. As it is it's usually 1 or 2 saying something and then getting shouted down.
I think it is fighting windmills by now. So at least good quality could be pronounced, this alone would prevent 90% of rips, because they just can't reach that level.
agree IMHO AC has been the place to promote rips most coming from console to PC have no idea of the PC edict when it comes to modding. Now its everywhere.
A huge amount of early rF1 content was rips, and people lapped it up because content is king. It's been a thing since it was possible to do. @mantasisg judging your modding worth by the opinion of others (many of whom evidently can't tell the difference between poor and good physics, other than some subjective 'feel') isn't the way to approach modding. If your satisfaction comes from knowing how much you put into it, and how closely you know it represents what you're simulating, you will do better with it. If you (speaking generally about a 'modder') expect to get recognition for all the hours you put in, your expectations are mislaid. This is the case with many things, not just modding, and if you can't be at peace with that it's better not to start. IMO.
I personally don't expect any recognition for anything. And time definitely isn't what makes creations great, but what makes creations great also takes lots of time. I would personally rather see pro modders releasing unfinished 0.2-0.4 versions one after another and never finishing them graphically. Than having series of "1.0" ports that are actually four times behind 0.3 version of proper project. Too bad these numbers of versions are all subjective, unfortunately you can't quantify quality or common sense like you can count time. And imagine how fast a fairly skilled modder could bake actually decent rips, devilish fast, even more so if only doing physics on a very surface level and understanding how not to make a mess. And then suddenly everybody supports it.
I'm just reading your post, where you ask if it's worth spending 400 hours on your XJ13 when something with 10 hours work could "beat it". How are you judging it? What's your goal of modding? And, what are you aiming for with this thread? An organised ongoing take down of rips?
My goal is to create pleasant simracing experience to myself and others. But with this thread I am questioning worth of sharing, or worth of going extra miles. When you can get stuff done "just good enough". What I am pushing is for people to be lilltle more demanding, so that anything at all wouldn't be "good enough", and doing something better would be more rewarding for modders. Clear now ? I think it is nice of rF2 community that it isn't spoiled up to level that they would be picking up on mods disrespectuflly for nit picks. But on the other hand, could just be more demanding. And rips especially... if you got some superbly done model from somewhere and suddenly it is normal to publish them, then at least try match up with it's implementation perhaps ?
There are so many sources for models now that it is nearly impossible to police for rips vs. not ripped. Sure, we can have our suspicions because individuals and teams with track records of ripping models generally aren't going to change their ways, but there are also free & low-cost car models available. With the ultra-high polygon car models it's even possible to rip one as a slightly lower polygon model (though it takes a bit more effort than a straight rip). Likewise, one can also enhance low polygon models to achieve an acceptable appearance. rF2 is difficult to mod correctly(*), so it's easy to take shortcuts, particularly when one is unaware of the ballpark for the correct values. Lack of data and a shortage of tools coupled with a high desire to see cars in-game mean the quality is given short-shrift. As a community, we can only improve the situation by sharing data and tools (thank you @redapg ), gently guiding efforts that fall short, and (on the receiving end) taking criticism constructively. (*) Borda's physics spreadsheet is helpful, but it lacks guidance. For instance it will make fine dampers if you already have dampers to model and understand what the numbers mean, but it doesn't get you in the ballpark when you only know spring rates. The tire library is very short of historic tires. The graphics engine has substantially changed 3 or 4 times in the past decade with new terminology & techniques. The sound engine has changed twice (one extension plus the recent overhaul).
Rip or not rip. When made by someone else, and all that is left to do is to adjust few things so it appears and works in game, many just stops there within comfortable boundaries before actual work could begin. Decreasing poly count in case model is too detail is already what will be bit too much of an effort to many. And it is possible to "police", there aren't hundreds of same similar looking cars modeled. And if there are more than few usually some details give it away. And if not - looking at mesh will always tell. Why so many ripping is happening, and when I offer my W125, when I ask for someone to help get it to game it doesn't happen ? Why it also happens so with 50s Lotus F1 that someone has offered a while ago ? I think there were couple other similar cases. Obviously there are issues with communication. Ripping is 0 communication thing. Too introverted to ask Too introverted to collaborate Too introverted to listen. Few times I tried to plug in my observations and ideas and few times it was met nicely, few times I have been blown away with ignorance, as one smart guy said "they don't know, and they want to know less". Yes it is difficult to get all nodes right, so whole thing works well, that is even before any data/research to get things done. But in some cases there wasn't even an attempt - car does 1% of things it should, physics entirely taken from different car, car generates tons of downforce when it should be opposite. Yes it gets difficult as soon as you actually start doing something, especially when you also have to learn, which is hardest part. I am myself not utilizing 100% of rF2 and not always use or know how to use best and most professional methods, yet. Still I can see how far it is possible to get only if you know a bit and put a bit of true effort. Still further than, for example, even possible to mod in Assetto Corsa. And many rips are so underutilizing possibilities that it is good in not a single way, except for 5min content try-out simracers. I'd say it would be whatever, but it is a problem when all that stuff is just accepted, just look what a blast Bazza has in AC with his reasonably OK work. same is possible in rF2 just much better. I am not saying it is best way, but since it is so normal and accepted.... We can see now some of projects like that is emerging like SGS 1964 project with models sourced from various places, and they seem like they might be turning on extra miles, not just basic initial implementations, but I am not the most familiar with them so far. Hopefully not a missed opportunity to get more exciting rF2 handling and other good features utilizing content.
