Please S397, share the physics files and the tires of your cars.

Discussion in 'Car Modding' started by gianluca, Aug 16, 2022.

  1. gianluca

    gianluca Registered

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    Modding this game is not easy. Making the physics and the tires of the cars is a nightmare for the people who would like to do it. Most of the car mods out there use the ISI cars physics as a base to start with and lot of people make a copy/paste from other mods, starting form the tires.

    I can understand you encrypting the files that contain the 3D models of tracks and cars, to avoid being ripped. But hdv, chassis, tbc, tgm, etc.? Why? What's the problem in sharing them?
    Because they are in the same mas file with sounds and some other element that you don't want to share? Well, you can always share them separately: zip file hosted somewhere or shared here in the forum.

    Please share the tires and the other physics files for all your cars.
    You just released the Mini and the tires alone of that car would be very useful for the modders who want to make other versions of the Mini, or other similar small cars.
     
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  2. Coutie

    Coutie Moderator Staff Member

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    Manufacturers don't want their stuff being out in the wild, so there's no chance physics info can go out.
     
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  3. gianluca

    gianluca Registered

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    Manufacturers? Because you think that Pirelli and Michelin give videogame developers the complete data of their tire compounds? Come on... not even a line.
    Maserati, Ferrari and such use simulators that cost millions and develope their simulation software in house. They don't share nothing wih game developers: at best they give CAD files and a test driver to try the game and give suggestions for the setup of the car.
    Videogames can't even simulate properly TC and SC, let alone the complexity of the differential system of a Mitsubishi Evo VI. What could they do with the correct data of the electronic of a Ferrari 488.
    If they had all the data of the Caterham and the game was able to simulate everything properly, then why felt weird on day one?
    Certainly I won't find any Ferrari or Pirelli secret inside the hdv, the chassis, the engine and the tgm files of the 488.
    Come on. They can share those files: is not like asking 3D models, CAD and Lidar data. It's a bunch of .ini text files, that for 80/90% of the lines are identical to the old Renault Clio and Megane from ISI.
     
  4. Coutie

    Coutie Moderator Staff Member

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    They share much more than cad files.
     
  5. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    settings in the hdv are one thing, the proprietary NATURE of a tire is entirely different. Goodyear/Dunlop stood toe to toe with Michelin. I doubt very much they'd offer other companies a chance to do the same. And yes, there have been some very basic hidden items in almost all the DLC cars, not because S397 is secretive, but part of licensing agreements often forbid such data becoming public. There are many Motec channels that worked when the first S397 DLC cars debut'd. But now much of that information is no longer available.
     
  6. ThomasJohansen

    ThomasJohansen Registered

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    It could be great if it was possible to use predefined tires (locked files) that modders could use. In that way, manufactures could still protect their knowhow.
     
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  7. gianluca

    gianluca Registered

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    :)
    I wonder what secret data could we find inside the files of the Mini. A 70 years old car, with no electronic, with a rat nest in the trunk and for which we have every possible mechanical manual.
    Sharing the tgm and tbc files of the car won't give S397 any trouble.
     
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  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Have you seen the licensing agreement?
     
  9. gianluca

    gianluca Registered

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    And you?
    In RF2 online tools there are many tire models available form the ISI and the S397 cars. If having them "public" would have been a problem for the Studio or ISI, they would asked to remove them long time ago.
     
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    The tyre database? There is a note there pointing out that some/many of the tyres have been modified from their licensed versions.

    Is that a no then?

    Let's suppose that as part of the licensing process either S397 offered a standard agreement wherein, or the manufacturer stipulated as part of their agreement that, certain information is kept encrypted. Let's suppose that includes tyre and physics files. So all that stuff is then encrypted.

    But the files tha- doesn't matter
    But this infor- doesn't matter
    But the car is- doesn't matter
    But - doesn't matter
     
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  11. gianluca

    gianluca Registered

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    No, don't suppose please. You don't work for S397 and don't have a clue of the licensing agreements that can be behind.
    I made a simple request in my OP and it's really just them that can answer to that, with a "OK" or with a "We can't because", nobody else.
    There isn't any note in the tire database of the rf2 online tools used by the modders, they are provided as they are in game. I checked that comparing what I downloaded with the identical tire compound picked from the mas file of the car that was mounting it (notepad++ and compare plugin, quite easy).

    Let's say a tire manufacturer like Pirelli gives S397 a bit of technical data regarding the tire consumption characteristics of a specific compound and ask to don't share the info. That data is then used by S397 to customize their base tire model for a specific car.
    Now, you looked inside a tgm.ini. You have to have a deep understanding of the rfactor 2 tire model and to be a mechanical engineer with a lot of free time, in order to be able to reverse engineer such data. And... for what?
    Is there really somebody inside here who thinks that Goodyear pay engineers to crack the rfactor 2 encryption to look inside the tgm file of a car who uses Pirelli tires, and steal their secret formula? Come on, let's be serious. If you are a billionaire company who have competitors and want to discover the characteristics of their products, you buy a lot of them and ask your engineers and other experts to cut them open and analyse them, even chemically.

    Even Neils gave up with the rfactor 2 tire model. For the regular guy who mess around with modding, the data inside a tgm it's like an ancient language forgotten since 3000 years. And that's why everybody use the available tire models and customize them a bit in size with the rfactor 2 online tools.
    There can't be no harm for the Studio in sharing such files. None.
     
  12. Frederick Alonso

    Frederick Alonso Registered

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    Even with the info, most people will not set it up right in all physics files, I'm not saying it's impossible.

    I noticed people who make insane physics, really know what their doing in the code.
    April that has done the physics of my Cayman GT4 can tell what is going on or has done wrong in the code on many mods.

    The knowledge for debugging any issues that might be found, is golden. For me it's a complex matter, while I do understand most of this code. Some issues are a result of something completely different. Weight, aero, chassis, springs, tyre grip at play, which one is causing the issue or is it the combo of all them together .. ? You get the idea. In the end if car physics and tyre data would be shared, other game developers would grab it which is bad for the S397 future in my opinion.

    So it's ok to keep this a 'secret' but a similar tyre like latest model is very welcome at the official dev corner for GT3, Prototypes, Formula, and road cars in 2022 spec.
    What @ThomasJohansen suggested here is a great option.

    It's no matter of how or why, if S397 did sign an NDA contract with those companies for whatever reason. It's clear they cannot share that info.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
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  13. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    obviously studio 397 does not think like you, and does not share, .... your assumptions can be right or wrong but for that reason they will not give you what they do not want to give
    I also think that it was clear above, that they already answered you
     
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  14. shiet

    shiet Registered

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    I would be happy if I could load DLC tracks in devmode to finetune the AI. I don't want to do anything with the track itself.
     
  15. gianluca

    gianluca Registered

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    That's the point, 95% of the people who make car mods don't know how to modify properly the RF2 physics .ini files of the car depending of it's different characteristics (engine position, weight distribution, tire model, etc.) and they keep using as a base for their mods the old rfactor 1 files, or the files of the early ISI cars, that can be decrypted. And this is true specially for the guys who want to start with rfactor 2 modding, but don't come from a rfactor 1 modding background.
    The Studio can't share the exact data used in the DLC cars for licensing reasons? Fine. Then at least provide few car models more beside the SkipBarber, with different characteristics, to use as base. Don't give them the name or the shape of a real-life car and make it available somewhere: in the moddev folder or in the forum.
    If someone wants to make a car like the Delta Group A rally car, moving from the SkipBarber without having the documentation that explains to you how to modify the files to adjust the engine and gearbox position and height in the car, how to add and set the 4WD, etc. is quite complicated. The new guys just give up or end up putting a new 3D model over the Megane.
    Either they provide a complete detailed step by step guide, or they provide a good base for the most common type of cars to start from. Otherwise the modding support is just for the graphics. I mean, time ago there was the dev blog diary of the Brabham BT44 by Michael Borda, but it seems disappeared. Can't find it neither in the internet archive.
    And this is the only material provided for the physics development:
    https://docs.studio-397.com/developers-guide/car-development/car-physics
    The old ISI 2012 pdf about car modding regard mostly the 3D model and how to get them in game.
    The rest is in the side notes of the SkipBarber ini files (that aren't complete and not sufficient).

    There is nothing about how to adjust the physics. One can only search in the forum and hope for someone's help. But even like that, most of the times, it's just guessing and not complete information.
    That's why providing some ini files of the new cars is important for the modding community.
    You can't share the same exact tgm of the Mini? Then share a basic dry/wet model with the same size, that can be used for all the other cars similar to it, or even for other Mini versions. Would be miles better than having to adjust the Clio tires, that are too different.
     
  16. Goanna

    Goanna Registered

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    Do you mean the stuff here => https://www.studio-397.com/all-news/page/29/
     
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  17. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    is there any ISI left?, no, now it's STUDIO 397
    obviously I'm not STUDIO but if I can assure you that rfator 2 is no longer ISI, I would like it more or like it less but now it's another company, other guidelines, whether we agree or not, it is what it is

    where is ACC? well that!
     
  18. gianluca

    gianluca Registered

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    Yes, that, thanks a lot. The old links disappeared and I couldn't find it. I was looking in the posts of the author of that blog (M. Borda): initially they were posted there.
    See, this car tutorial should be linked in the physics page of the development tools. Instead it's in the News section.

    What's your point? S397 keep the old ISI guides linked in this forum, and the tire and physics files that I've mentioned are from both the developers. Did S397 updated the NSX, the Clio and Corvette physics? As far as I know, these cars are still like they were before they took over. They just received graphical updates. And non everyone of them. So the people who use the ClioCup or the NSX as a base for their projects, are using the old stuff made by ISI.
    Can someone be offended if I say that some cars and tracks are still like they were before S397 bought RF2? I don't think so. And why would they be? Certainly I don't mean to desrespect nobody, because I like both the developers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
  19. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @gianluca first reply in this thread is from a staff member.
     
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  20. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    No one here disrespected anyone,...they don't even talk about disrespect,...at least I haven't seen that...
    As I said before, you can agree or not, but it is clear that for certain reasons they do not want to! Just that.
    I imagine a confidentiality agreement, of the new nothing and of the old what there was, although now I imagine that it will no longer be positive because by updating the graphics engine everything changed, and with the tires well, I imagine that the same thing.... everything changes and the who pays sends, in this case Studio 397
     

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