Happy Holidays - A December Update

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by Paul Jeffrey, Dec 23, 2021.

  1. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Good post man!
     
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  2. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Yes there may be couple exceptions like stationary FFB, optional canned effects for greater immersion, but I mean that ACC, Raceroom and iRacing’s FFB is physics based. I was not talking about tire model being physical or empirical.

    BTW: Happy New Year!
     
  3. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    If you simplify it like that every current sim's FFB is physics based so the argument does not bring anything to the discussion.
     
  4. AlexHeuskat

    AlexHeuskat Registered

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  5. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Until Jun this year Raceroom didn’t have purely physics based FFB. Also I’m not sure if pCars 1&2 &3 and AMS2 have it. Since pCars 2 there’s Raw preset but I don’t know if it’s fully physics based. AFAIK generally rf2 FFB is physics based, but there are canned effects defined and enabled by default in controller’s JSON files. Perhaps most of them are legacy effects (rf1) and don’t do anything .
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
  6. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    All madness engine based are physics based. Purely physics based unlike AC/ACC. You have a function (editable unlike in most games) that takes whole telemetry as an input and outputs the FFB strength. You can't get more physical than that. And it doesn't matter if it's Raw, Informative, Default or Default+. Those are simply different algorithms for calculating the FFB. But all are purely based on physics.

    Judging by your post here though again I'm not sure we are even talking on the same page. You don't need to be "Raw" to be physics based.
     
  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    This whole little discussion started with "physics based, unlike rF2". In hindsight it should have been left there - it speaks for itself.

    @Havner re 'guilty' below - me too mate :p
     
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  8. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    So true... Guilty as charged.
     
  9. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    PC1 is Madness engine based, but had something like hundred FFB sliders and still a lot of users complained about it's FFB, so custom FFB files were provided by the community to alleviate the problem. And if it was purely physics based, then I guess people wouldn't complain about default FFB so much and I would expect it to have only couple sliders like FFB force, minimum force etc.

    In addition, PC1 and PC2 (and probably PC3) were missing :
    "For years and years we were missing two tyre forces in Project CARS, or rather to be more technically precise we were missing two moments that were opposing forces":
    https://forum.projectcarsgame.com/s...hristiaan-s-Pure-FFB-(Custom-pCARS2-FFB-File)


    Do you have source AC/ACC isn't purely physics based? I know they have couple sliders that you can use to enhance/add some effects, but if you leave them at 0% it's purely physics based(with exception of stationary FFB).

    If some physics engine's forces are modified, then FFB is not purely physics based.

    My understanding is that, if you use anything other than Raw (as long as Raw is 1:1 physics engine based FFB) , then it's not purely physics based - you get imaginary physics based FFB. Which is ok if you really want more immersive FFB than purely based on physics one.


    Again that's my understanding that unless FFB depends 1:1 on physics engine, then it's not purely physics based. If rf2 has some "enhancement" effects defined in controller's JSON file (like "Rumble strip pull factor" ) than it's not purely physics based.

    And yeah I'm not talking about tire model being physics based in rF2 vs "empirical" in ACC.
     
  10. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    This discussion is pointless (as Lazza noted). Your understanding is wrong. If everything would be the way you claim your FFB understanding is your FFB would barely have any forces as it would behave like real cars do. Dull. There is more than one solution to the problem. Doesn't mean any of them are wrong. Whole sim racing is artificial. You fixate yourself on sliders. They do not matter per se in this discussion. Context does. The fact that rF2 have some sliders doesn't mean it's not physics based. The fact that other game doesn't have any doesn't mean it is. Your understanding of the issue is really limited. There is much more depth to all of this underneath you seem not to comprehend.
    About AC/ACC I proved you empirically that it's not 1:1.
     
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  11. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    That's what they say about ACC FFB, yet AFAIK it's purely physics based (except stationary FFB effect and optional road effects slider )

    It does if the effect is not based on physics engine, but rather is a canned effect. And technically these are not sliders, but entries in JSON file. Of course it doesn't matter but I don't want people to confuse with e.g. minimum force slider etc. in GUI.

    That's obvious, but in case of rF2, ACC, Raceroom it does. ACC(with noted exception) and Raceroom have purely physics engine's based FFB. rF2 has some canned effects enabled in the JSON file (I tested at least one, which IIRC is set by default to non 0 value). I don't know how many more depend on physics engine, but are enhanced by default in the JSON file for better immersion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2022
  12. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    This is not stating fact, just my thought process.

    If sliders or files are only modifying an existing steering column force derived directly from the physics (steering column) = not canned.

    You could play with sliders all day long and your ffb could be really out of wack, but just as long as sliders/files are modifying an existing force after the fact, that is still technically not canned ffb.

    But if rF2 is creating an artificial force out of thin air rather than modifying a force that's derived directly from the physics, isn't that basically the definition of canned?

    Not exactly sure which category rF2 falls into. Surely some rumble effects are purely canned?
    Edit: Happy new year!
     
  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Rumble pull, where it happens (I'm pretty sure I tested this years ago and a number of tracks didn't generate it while others did; probably need to test again), would be canned. All the other JSON stuff is possibly tuning the FFB, but isn't canned any more than adding smoothing or changing wheel (/profile) options is.
     
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  14. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    That’s basically my understanding too. Except that if e.g. some sliders/file entries amplify a physics engine’s forces I wouldn’t classify such FFB purely physics based. So e.g. if you set in ACC road effects slider to non 0 value, then for me
    FFB is no longer purely physics based. Same with rf2 JSON entries that may or may not be amplified for better immersion.
    I’m not even talking about canned effects like rumble pull in rf2. I know I said Raceroom devs say it’s now 100% physics based , but I think even there some effects might be canned , like after going into gravel you feel stones attached to the tires( for brief moment after returning to the road)
     
  15. GTClub_wajdi

    GTClub_wajdi Registered

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    Well… any news?!
     
  16. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Can't see any.
     
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