The Unrealistically Difficult Real Cars Handling Thread... or just incorrect real life physics

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mantasisg, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Mind stepping down from that pedestal?
     
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  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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  3. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, that hurts, to wreck his car :D:D
     
  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Nieubermesch Absolutely undeserved, I am sad about that. It was his fastest lap, so I assume he was just starting unleashing his car. Absolutely crap physics of real life, including the damage physics, way too harsh. He did steer into slide incredibly late, pardon me, I wonder where the seat feel and proper FFB information was at that time.
     
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  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Some extra warning vibrations or a big popup window alerting him to a rear grip loss might have saved him :p

    Don't worry, I'm just taking the piss haha

    Great video though. That happens in a game and people are complaining about physics, no doubt.
     
  6. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Clearly making the handling artificially difficult to try and be more hardcore, that or physics broken :p (1:50)

     
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  7. Filip

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    Could be a bug in grip modelling, what did Motec say?
     
  8. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    From my point of view that is certainly not drivers induced oscilation that resonated into immediate spin.
     
  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Sim_Player That Kerb grip setting was surely way too low, whoever modded that track should realize that harder doesn't mean more realistic.

    I see the yawing begins very soon after mid turn apex. Driver was late to initiate any kind of action at least by 0.1s, in my opinion, very good driver would have probably turned into the slide 0.2s earlier than this driver did, tiny quick correction would have been enough. Car also seems to be bouncing a bit after hitting mid turn apex. I don't think he had caught it at all, probably expected to have caught it at one short moment as you spotted exactly at the time when wheel drove on the kerb.

    Senna knew that car is going to loose grip on the kerb, before it did that :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
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  10. Filip

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    Senna also has proper footwear which is crucial to anticipate grip loss.
     
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  11. green serpent

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    IMO he was too late in catching the slide. He was balsy to exit the corner that fast, but I feel like at that speed you need to be antisipating the slide and counter-steering exactly as it happens or even slightly before, not a split second after. I think Senna would have had that wheel pointed straight at about 0:5 and done a very smooth little slide on the curb at exit.

    This one is actually a good example of "real life physics broken", because people all the time blame the sim when they counter-steered into a slide and yet they still spin and they think physics broken. Whenever this happens to me, I watch the replay closely and usually I see that when the car initially started to yaw 1. I was half a second too late with the countersteer, and 2. (which is a continuation to 1.) when I do countersteer, my front tires are not actually pointed in the direction of the slide.

    But yeah, more rear downforce probably would have helped this guy out quite a bit, I would not want to drive that car IRL withour more rear wing!
     
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  12. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    There is a point IRL with a lot of experience in a car that you know when the car is going to slide even before the car knows it's going to slide ;) It's not even going by feel, more intuition and experience. But 100% even the best can still get caught out.

    I also think (maybe not 100% of the time), that when you add throttle you should open the wheel up, even if only by a fraction. But hey, I'm no racing driver :(
     
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  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Definitely experience, anticipation and accurate prediction is absolutely a 6th sense that is above all others. I am sure it allows to cut reaction times down dramatically. If you can predict and control your own actions and influence well enough that you are just about to drop the ball, you'll be fully alerted to catch it immediately.

    I have few ideas, one about whats the sequence of cues, and about downforce.

    I suggest that visual cues are actually on the very top, and cues from steering would be third. As for seat feel, I guess it depends on person, I'd assume some would have better feel of body position and forces than others, perhaps same could be said about visual sense. Science experiments needed. Anyway to begin with both should be isolated, in simracing we are isolated from changes of our position and aren't experiencing inertias. And at least I can drive pretty well. To isolate visual cues and focusing on seat feel proper experiment would be getting blind folded and observing reaction to oversteer (I guess huge parking lot would be needed). I think it is easy to predict outcome of driving blindfolded, even if there would be initial little trigger of early yaw, it would probably leave the driver totally confused what to do. Also I guess blindfolded driver could mistake tiny changes of cornering g force to oversteer. Would be an interesting experiment. My personal opinion is that vision and body feel are connected, but vision is necessary and absolutely dominant, while just perhaps seat feel could help to extract microscopic amount of better reaction to take an action. As for what steering self aligning does to stabilize the car is different subject and also complex subjects, at least in simulation it seems that in some occasions it is fine to let car shake slides itself, perhaps with some throttle modulation, and in some other cases if you wait for car to self align into the slide it is already too late.

    The downforce thing IMO has shortcomings too. More downforce would allow more stability and higher speeds at high speed turn. However, with limits exceeded and stalling of wings, or even loss of downforce with yaw, wings would do opposite of helping. So I guess it is worth a discussion, what is worse - to loose traction earlier but smoother with car that produces lift (perhaps even getting lift reduced with yaw), or to loose traction later, but more suddenly with wing. Although that probably depends a lot on aero design, fins and stuff...
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  14. Filip

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    When I sit next to an amateur for coaching, a lot of the time I know when the car is about to slide a second or so before the driver. This is because of my experience, but the truth is it can be learnt – pretty quickly – if a driver continually drives their car on the edge of grip and has a lot of these small oversteer moments.
    https://driver61.com/uni/oversteer/
     
  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    This has been a good ironic thread. Can we not destroy it with pseudo-physics?
     
  16. green serpent

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    Probably my bad :p. I was blaming the driver in that Honda video, when it was clearly the AC tire model not being able to handle curbs!
     
  17. mantasisg

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    I am not much against pseudo phyzik comments of examples we show here, but I agree it is nice to stay in touch with the main direction of the thread before any of the discussion swings into multiple pages :D

    Here I found an example of buggy grip model, where grip returns way too early. I mean you correct the slide you loose the car, you don't correct you also loose it. What to do ?
     
  18. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    I find it funny how he actually did the exact thing I mentioned in a previous comment (correct earlier), and it still didn't work out for him. Just goes to show, dosn't matter how good you are, it's the broken physics to blame.
     
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  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Difficult does not mean more realistic

     
  20. Love Guitars n Cars

    Love Guitars n Cars Registered

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