The Unrealistically Difficult Real Cars Handling Thread... or just incorrect real life physics

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mantasisg, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    Wasn't Verstappen who praised rf2 Marussia many years ago? He was already in F1 at the time.
     
  2. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Youtubers are there to entertain. They're not there to give PHd-level lectures on physics, realism, aero or that sort of thing.
     
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  3. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Youtubers are there to do whatever the heck the Youtuber wants, if they want to give PH-d level lectures they can. I for one try to make my videos as boring and unentertaining as possible, the goal is to annoy and antagonize the viewer, rather than entertain ;). I think @mantasisg is just having a bit of a dig for a joke, it's a joking kind of thread.
     
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  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @AMillward I do get entertained by youtubers. In fact I watch a lot of youtubers, including you. Also I get influenced a lot, I have never understood how unrealistic and wrong reality is since I started living in youtube, video games and internet. For example, I just learned about force feedback from rear axle a week ago, I liked it because these sort of things are what I want to hear as it effectively means I am actually better than simulations makes me seem to be. All happened while just being entertained, what a time to be alive. I want to be a youtuber too, I wish I could...

    On a serious note, ruining vibe of this sarcastic thread, there is no problem with youtubers and influencers till they starts repeatedly telling and suggesting and highlighting wrong things for thousands of their followers. For example, implying that something is simulated correctly/incorrectly, too easy/too hard/or just right, brings certain level of responsibility, even though it is talk about a video game, it also implies that reality is like that. I think simulating something that especially is relying on some skill and ability is a responsibility that has an impact of peoples reality perception, judging themselves and others fairly, respecting professionals and not getting lost when it is time to deal with reality. However, people tend to not like the truth as much if it is less pleasing, so there is a dangerous inclination to one side of wrong.

    I also think that only focusing on games and and simulations in any aspect - physics, visuals, sounds, and never paying proper attention to reality is a lost opportunity to learn a lot of beautiful things. To me interest in simulation and various doubts about it led (and still leads) to noticing and learning lots of beautiful things about reality, which I otherwise would have never noticed or thought about at all (IRL thangs that just happens that we just pass by as its all normal). I think PHd or any high level specific education is not needed, that is not an excuse to be wrong, it is fair not to know and be aware about it. Simracers and especially youtubers could bridge reality and simulation much better for many people, if they just looked at reality a little bit more and more closely. Simulation can't be a substitute to real thing, the more there will be constant interaction between simulation and reality with critical and observing attitude, the better it will be. And I wish reality won't become lost dimension in simracing or anywhere. I hope reality won't get replaced by simulation. I hope reality won't be used just to advertise simulation, but also to teach it and give an example. I hope simacing won't turn into market of pleasing all kinds of wrong perceptions, all it has to do is "just" to be like reality, that is one of the reasons why simcades and arcades should not be a shame, because otherwise they will leak and blend into simulation genre.
     
  5. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    And the same goes for self proclaimed physics experts all over the internet who seem to somehow know all the intricacies of how Senna’s Mclarens actually worked, drove and they seem to know what is realistic and what isn’t; despite never driving them

    it happens everywhere.
     
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  6. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Exactly. But some of them are more legit and honest than others. You decide who.

    As a coincidence Neils Heusinkveld did series on 90s F1, worked on simulating early 90s Mclaren. IMO he did fantastic job on it from the looks of how he drive it. However, he did express that when making and judging your own physics he often experience internal conflicts whether something is not too hard or too easy, correct enough or not. If proper physics makers all were honest and publicly open, all of them would tell the same thing.

    I also disagree that driving a car for real would be a magic key at recreating it, nor it is necessary. At best it would provide possibly better understanding of what the car does, but would not give that much answers to why it does what it does unless driven by literal PhD in physics of cars who also happens to be skilled driver, like Rudolf Uhlenhaut when working with pre war Mercedes GP cars. Not only that, many people who drives the cars for real, never brought any significant "truths" about RL, many never shared anything, and most who were able to collect information and to share it, didn't understand why certain things are happening, but they could tell what is happening, which usually is possible to tell already by just observing them driving, just with little bit more doubt, they do help after all. Norbert Singer told that when talking with drivers you usually should not try to listen what they tell literally, but rather what they mean, because they just don't have a mind which is that exact and constructive at understanding precise effects that happens.

    Give physics makers who already worked a lot on certain cars, and have specific questions in interest about many exact details of car driving, to thrash those particular cars for a few whole days in several different circuits, I don't deny it would help them :D Also a truck of fresh tires would be helpful too I guess, since to get a whole picture it would be necessary to brutally abuse many sets of tires.
     
  7. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    I'm all for maximum realism except ffb.
    Couldn't care if ffb is realistic or not because to me purpose of ffb is to compensate all the feedback player is missing in his funny chair looking at funny rectangle screen and smelling tea and biscuits instead of burnt rubber and petrol.

    In that regard I agree with that YouTuber but I don't agree with him that rf2 ffb is missing.
    It has the most communicative and *fun ffb that always tells me what the car is doing. In most cars at least.

    *I apologize in advance for this inappropriate subjective adjective in a very serious thread
     
  8. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Filip Well yes indeed it was all so serious stuff in this thread, and now we stopped being serious :D

    There is no such thing as FFB from rear that could somehow compensate seat feel. I agree seat feel must have some helping. IMO best and least harmful way would be to ease aero sensitivity to yaw, and unsharp the tires. Both things should be done by tiny little mini micro nano amount, just to make loosing of a car so much slightly slower and it would probably be just like IRL, you wouldn't need to ruin fundamental dynamics and realistic steering functionality. I know that it works because I did work on cars physics for several years now, and used to be deeply interested a long time before.

    However, I think it is already being done in majority of stuff that is simulated in simracing world, and I also think that these things are overdone in some cases much too much. There is a saying - appetite grows as you eat. The problem is that if it is so much overdone, car just doesn't work like it should anymore, tires begins bearing things that they shouldn't and still performs, weird things are being done to them to keep pace realistic, realistic setups doesn't work anymore, feel of car can't possibly be realistic anymore just arguably better (better, not more realistic, which for me personally means worse) feel of car, arguably better and for wrong reasons. Primarily it is just to be easier, making learning curve easier and reducing spread of differently skilled simracers paces, nothing else. Same with aero, if it is made way too little sensitive than it should be.
     
  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    The problem with canned effect (unless it is possible turn it off), is that it would apply all cars, and have different outcome on them. With very slight physics softening it can be adjusted individually for all cars, and I believe in fairly insignificant amount just to give that 0.05s of spare time to react, but when it allows to literally sleep and drink tea and read chat while pushing the car hard- it is obviously too far. And I am sure it simply just happens in most of physics of most cars in simulations, because I believe most people aren't top of the top drivers, and naturally gets on softer side. But then some are skilled little enough to still have a problem with difficulty, no need to speculate that talking and driving also takes away some of mental resources that otherwise should go on achieving as best possible car control as possible at fastest possible pace, as well as various other types of distractions such as having your thoughts drifting away... Having an ability to have some yaw sensor in physics which would automatically produce FFB instantly into catching a slide like if all cars were driving with huge caster, super quick steering, super tiny wheelbase would just ruin it all, furthermore it would still be possible to entirely loose the car with drivers who are low skilled and distracted enough, it inevitably would require lots of dumbing for tires and aero, and then its boom, its Project Cars or Dirt Rally 2 and to slight extent, but not much too much - Assetto Corsa.. However, when even the well know professional and in general great drivers complains, it should be fully understood why it happens so, and what does it mean for physics.

    There are also (still) literally few people that glorify legends and professionals and tend to expect physics that is impossible to drive, of course that is wrong too. But in these days it is much less expected IMO There is no bottom at underrating professionals and great talents and their focus and talent when it is time to do their job for real in real race with real price. And as you say if a spin happens one is expected to consider his own mistake at least, but we often get an examples of looking for reasons elsewhere, professionals are extremely guilty for that though - it is always them who win, and car which looses. Must be considered when obtaining their feedback. It is easy to put some blame on something that can not be nor proven nor denied, but who cares, ego wins.
     
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  10. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    @mantasisg I'd say you are overthinking it.
    Big majority here probably wants as realistic physics as it gets.
    Exactly!
    Canned ffb in theory doesn't alter the physics.
    For instance I want to feel car's rotating which real drivers feel through their body.
    If devs find a way to provide that feedback through the wheel I am happy to have it.
    It doesn't change the physics, it's not making anything easier than real life.
     
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  11. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    I personally do not like canned ffb. I tried acc with these canned effects as default (I think), and it was all just background noise to me. It all gets in the way and distracts from what is important.

    I don't need any rumbles or vibrations and what not, all I need is the pure force telling me which way the front tyres want to turn, and then I decide to what amount I should resist, allow or overcome that force.

    Pure FAST high fidelity ffb straight from the steering column tells you everything you need to know to drive the car. It cannot directly tell you all things, but you can deduce so much from it. Canned effects just dilute that. In my personal opinion of course. And car set up probably matters a lot too, like with low caster and less self aligning torque it'll be harder to feel the oversteer.
    Do not give me ideas for immersion!

    Talking about immersion and getting more information from the game that isn't canned but somewhat from the physics, I had a rather silly idea the other day. I think I am going down some rabbit holes lately with lockdown giving me too much time to think.

    So when driving a formula car in sim, imagine if you had a leaf blower mounted to the top of your monitor, and it simulated the wind speed drawing directly from the sim physics. Now for the crazy part, imagine if you had a mini replica of the car attached to the top of your helmut with all its wings getting buffeted by the wind. I'm not an expert on fluid dynamics, but maybe if everything was scaled, it could give you information about the pitch and yaw of the chassis. Either that or just a strained neck!
     
  12. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @green serpent the helmet-top-model is definitely "out there"... You might need a lie down :D

    But variable wind (from a fan) with car speed has been done, years ago (I think rF2, but possibly rF1) with someone making a plugin to control it. Not a leaf blower though!
     
  13. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    I think the idea of having a scale model of a racing car on top of my helmet just seemed cool to me lol :cool: But yeah, obviously that's a bit ridiculous, but the wind would be awesome. Time to make a trip to Bunnings!
     
  14. RaceNut

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    Simulated wind & head-force effects have been done by DIY sim-rig builders (Racing / Flight). There probably isn't much that hasn't been simulated on some level and they can get incredibly complex and detailed. In addition to sustained G-force effects on the body, some have used servo-driven cables or bungees attached to a helmet.
     
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  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Thats better fit to this thread: https://forum.studio-397.com/index....read-or-just-correct-real-life-physics.67018/

    I thought of both ends of the spectrum when opening this thread, so other was necessary. Although I must repeat glorifying is much more rare these days. It would have been more of an issue in GPL days, when sim was built for entirely different generation who also were absolutely admiring all these drivers sixties. Just to point out, I have not played GPL, just heard it was difficult. Then what iRacing did to Lotus 49, the most messed up car in simracing, at least it was two years ago, unforgivable. These days most kids much more likely underestimate great talents and overestimate themselves.

    I am sure any dev could find a way very easily.

    Drivers feel cars by their whole bodies, but they also do it with eyes, and the question is how much the "seat feel" adds up to the information that is helpful. Could it be just more impressing factor ?

    It doesn't change the physics if you add such imaginary "rear FFB", yaw sensory FFB thing. But it would change greatly what you do physically yourself. And it would make it easier than real life. Lets just assume seat feel really is so much more help IRL, the driver would still have to react to it, feel it. Chances are you'd not be sensitive to that at all, as opposing to some other person, likely some pro. Now if you'd put up such FFB help to "compensate". You would compromise everything greatly. It wouldn't be necessary for you to react anymore, you'd just have to wait for FFB to react and start doing the job for you, and then you would just need to be fast enough to hold an oversteer at appropriate moment and by using your inputs to return the car back from slide as best as you can. Essentially you'd have to do half of a job. It would change driving dramatically. And it would ruin driving of some particular cars or driving styles completely. It would ruin neutral steer, also known as four wheel drifting, wouldn't be able to do it, because if IRL you could keep the steering straight during such slide, now FFB with its "rear FFB" would send torque steering into a slide making such dynamic unnatural and effectively removing it from sim....

    Although adding up some additional FFB effect doesn't mess up underlying physics. It would mess up FFB which otherwise would be result of physics, now it would be some fantasy mess. It would be an invitation to ruin rF2 since most people agrees that rF2 has amazing FFB (physics), why to ruin it ? So you falsely will drive better ? Get realistic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  16. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    I just want all the info real driver gets, it doesn't need to be helpful. It's for immersion.
    Again, I am not for any kind of implementation that would give advantage for a sim player.
    The added ffb effects should be added in a way that it doesn't help reaction times. You are wrongly assuming ffb would do the job for player.
    And argument that simmers are not sensitive to motion doesn't hold, it's probably only thing that is natural in driving and doesn't need to be learnt.

    Btw while we're at it (are we? :D) easier vs harder than real life etc... every heavy high speed corner that you drive in a fast car in a sim without feeling g forces in your body is dumbed down and unrealistic - you're having it easier than real life drivers, there are no distracting and limiting forces that can impede your reactions ;)
     
  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Filip Yes thats right. I was lucky to get driven as a passenger with Porsche Cayman a month ago. I nearly passed out while accelerating from stand still, and I was even more so stunned by the braking. While these immense forces help, they also make it all more difficult. So it kind of evens out.

    Everything needs to be learnt, driving a bicycle needs to be learnt, walking needs to be learnt. Handstand needs to be learnt, walking on rope.... having proper sensitivity to body and body parts position in space is kind of skill. Yet close your eyes, and you'll certainly feel your balance being limited greatly. I don't recommend trying it though, except for slow walking.

    And I am definitely right about FFB doing job for a driver in such instance, it can't not be so, if steering forces develop much earlier and stronger than they should while oversteering. I have over 2000 hours in AC (just like in rF2), and in AC this effect kind of exists. It makes it easier, but also makes it less natural and does interfere a bit with driving. Four wheel drifts aren't as much of a thing in AC, FFB is bold to slightest oversteer with all cars. You just let the wheel slip through fingers, catch the oversteer and forcefully return the steering, you need much more force to return the steering than in rF2, I guess it is other downside of that strange "rear FFB" if it adds layer of force on top of force that should be there naturally. I am sure rF2 also wears servo motors less due to those effects not being present. And I don't say that there is some ultra fakery in AC, perhaps it just works so due some physics simplification... If that is immersive to people then I guess it is ok, it does not make it right.
     
  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    You're still assuming 'more feedback' means stronger and earlier forces. It doesn't have to.
     
  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Please explain, because I am still assuming so. There must be something I don't get then. All I can think about is how quickly and strongly self aligning torque would reverse and grow in effect of yaw angle as car oversteer or neutral steer. Are you talking about vibrations ? It is easy to imagine how silly it would feel to experience vibrations, noise in FFB as a signal to start catching the slide. Do we think about such things in rF2 community ? Perhaps also introduce big graphical alert in middle of a screen, or some metering overlay element to scream about oversteer ASAP. Last 2000K hours I played I did not need any of that.
     
  20. RaceNut

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    DD-wheels utilize a few more settings that can be applied directly to the servo, independent of the game-output or Direct Input effects. Friction and/or Damping effects can be used to control wheel rotational speed, having direct impact on our sense of over-steer. It's another way to affect the timing of the steering response in regard to self-aligning torque behavior.
     

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