The reason we need the new tire improvements in GT cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. J7166

    J7166 Registered

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    This video perfectly illustrates why in every other sim I'm about .5 to 1 second off the alien level drivers.....in rf2 that delta is 2-3 seconds. Other sims have weird quirks too, but I don't think any of them have the visual shock value that rf2 has.
     
  2. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Video basically summed up "In real life you can slide the car a lot and get away with it, it can also be quick, tires can be slipped a lot and be controllable." Do I feel that rF2 is too slidy, probably, but lets not forget that IRL if you have phenominal car control, sliding can be very very fast. Maybe it is too easy to slide in rF2 but sliding dosn't automatically equal being slower. I think it is also a result of rF2 having such good connection with the car that you can drive it in such a way. To me the car looks a bit NQR with the way it moves, like the tires are too springy and soft, but as far as controlling the car over the limit, I think an RL driver with very good car control and the right setup could drive similar to Henri, and it'd be fast as hell. They'd need to be brave though!

     
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  3. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It has nothing to do with rF2, it's what physics those cars in rF2 has.

    And definitely some other sims that are more mediocore, design their physics in such way, that peoples of all skills range paces would be squeezed in smaller time gap.

    And the driving style of Henri is just............. bold. I don't think he should get away with it for more than two turns. But I'll wait seeing how he will deal with latest cars with improved tire parameters. I bet we will see a lot more strict style from him, or will we ? Henri is on the spot light :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  4. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Like I said, some of the very good laps that are looking realisticaly on the edge with some sliding is one thing, but some of the sliding in RF2 is not quite in the same style that we see in RL with some cars. It could be down only to fear factor and what not, but I don't think so and some instances are a bit too easy to get way with. It's all good factors that contribute to getting away with it though.

    I prefer RF2 then what IRacing seemingly offers in terms of grip fall off, thats for sure.
     
  5. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    I suspect fast sliding the car like you see in these 'RF2 physics broken' vids would be much more difficult with a 1:1 FFB force/acceleration. In a real race car you can't just hold the steering wheel still, exactly where you want it to be as the tyres jerk around under the bumps.
     
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  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    That's true. It's a big component of it. I went from a T300 to a TS XW and with maximal range of forces in both of them I felt a different capability to catch cars in certain situations. Some were made easier as it was faster corrected, but the other side of the coin is that it can get snappy pretty fast. I can only imagine a 1:1 response. Probably the same thing will happen in it's own dimension.
     
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  7. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    It's surprising what you can and can't do with properly scaled FFB and the two characteristics you state I think are exactly right. Just look at the onboard footage from the Indycar. Even a 30nm DD doesn't move like that - it's too slow to accelerate up to peak force (or, it has too much inertia to be so instant at changing position - this is not torque, it's just accelerating far quicker that the driver can react to compensate for the change in torque).

    I mean, and big DD wheel is 100% a step in the right direction towards realism. Within the very niche world of DD wheel performance, the acceleration capabilities of the motor is one of the main factors which makes them feel 'better' than another DD wheel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  8. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    I think you are expecting a bit too much here. They are a small team and have had to set priorities. When they took over, physics was the strong suit, graphics the bad one, just like the online pick up racing state of things. Graphics have caught up big time now, but the CS still has a long way to go, just like the UI. But it does show with the new approach/data they use for the current tyre model (god forbid calling it the new TM) that resources are slowly shifting a bit.

    To come to your point, it is really hard to talk about such a complicated matter, with lots of people that think they know it better, when you are not working on that. It would be a waste of time (lots of it considering the length of the posts and threads about this).

    This could be different if they were working a lot on physics at that time, just like that happened with the CS. They are very responsive about that, definitely Jimmi, who works a lot with that system. He talks about how stuff works, what is coming, what is broken, when they are fixing it etc.

    I am not sure why you are bothered about them talking about pizza in their break once a month though. It's a fun sign that they are alive and well, without them getting tons of "ackchyually meme" responses.
     
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  9. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I chime in just to say that among the other factors, what allow simplayer to more constantly nail the limit (compared to R/L) is that computer simulation does not allow for fuzziness , a computer calculation, given the same initial numbers will always yield the same result. In R/L when you perform even the simplest laboratory experiment, under the most controlled condition, you need to pool data and do averages, and exclude odd results from the pool. In practical term this mean that the simdriver can more realiably predict (for example) how much grip his front left tire will be able to deliver in the next simulation frame, and plan his driving accordingly. In real life, you can make the same turn a hundred of times, but it still can happen that for some reason the result is never exactly the same, and if you are too much on the verge, a single little odd event can cascade in a unexpected way.
    This is what I think, if programmer could be able to add a little bit of uncertainty in their calculations, thing will seem much more realistic.. how much? Who knows.
     
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  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Yes steering forces being up to different scale can make huge difference. But most of the time steering would not be that much impossibly heavy. Modern race cars doesn't have steering too savage, at least that is what I heard about GT3. I know a guy who races Lamborghini Huracan ST, I could ask him.

    I suppose engineers would try to make car in such way that too heavy steering wouldn't prohibit evasive actions. It would be weird if something that is a lot more complex like tire would be capable of doing more, and heavy steering would bottle neck the performance. I know group C race cars were notorious with heavy steering, with all that downforce.

    The thing with oversteer (oversteer is usually main concern for us), steering goes lighter and very light for a moment before rear end steps out. There are two ways to deal with oversteer. First, let steering self align itself and just guide it slightly. Second, as decrease of self aligning torque is felt through the steering be faster than steering and proactively all by yourself turn into a slide. That is why it could be good idea not to hold squeezed steering rim strongly, because you can loose some sensitivity to torque changes. Phase of holding a slide after having turned into it is very interesting, sometimes it could be best not to hold at all, and sometimes necessary to do it for longer. Phase of returning from oversteer is kind of first phase in reverse, steering could align itself back, but it could be better or often necessary for a driver to straighten steering all by himself. During oversteering steering is heaviest in the hold phase if the car is still overturning, and also in returning phase if trying to straighten out front before rear end realigns. In AC there is this strong resistance when realigning cars back from oversteer, I am not sure if that is truly correct in most times, it is not that hard in rF2 to begin with, but in rF2 steering forces are less proactive, and instead requires more initiative from drivers to take actions.

    And there I'd like to mention those Indy drivers. Their steering in certain circumstances probably could exceed speed and torque of even most serious DD wheels around. But I doubt that they does most of the time. I think it is not that obvious by looking at that footage to tell if it is all steering forces moving the wheels so fast, or if that is drivers being pro and steering into a slides BEFORE cars steering would do it itself. Returning steering straight from slides BEFORE cars steering would do it itself. But it is hard to tell in most examples, however I tend to think that drivers are the ones that are taking initiative in at least half of those examples, rather than just holding hands on steering wheel and doing minimal guiding with slight use of power of their arms and with pedals modulation. The fast steering there is more drivers steering themselves, because it is that fast they need to keep up with what cars are doing in those edgy moments.

    So I think that the drivers has enough capability to control cars in those conditions with proper precision, maybe even could do it with single hand on steering wheel, but I also suppose if they were forcing steering too much in weird moments and weird ways, steering forces could perhaps be too intense to interfere and expect sufficient precision of control.
     
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  11. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Yeah, took me probably 3 years to switch from my first DFGT to the T300 and then more 3 years to switch to the TS XW. I think this time my new upgrade will take less time, but I also need to think about how to go with a rig that will shake and make much more noise if not propperly executed. I am fairly well built so I really like to have strong FFB wich some might prefer to have it lighter because they aren't. Even if I wasn't I think I would start going to the gym to handle the real forces :D:D:D.
     
  12. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Programming and 3D work are very different. They are very hard to combine and often are done by different people. But in programming there are things that are much more overlap able. Someone who can program physics, usually are also capable of programming other things around it. Stefano is a very good example of this, and LFS even is. I understand why people think that though, I only found this out myself when I started watching Stefano's programming streams and then also looked at how many people worked on LFS for example.
     
  13. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    That is a very probable cause for the halt on physics, but it's not like physics have really received much attention before - maybe the physics guys were more focused on cars too, and now they have to divide their focus again inbetween projects. S397 said resources would be shared, but maybe those resources are actually mainly in the graphics side of things? For now at least, since games are going to be built. Maybe they are educating the main people directing the other games and can direct their attention to the community wishes and demands and develop and fix the physics, wherever they might need some more urgent attention.
     
  14. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I think he means the Physics guys can work on other stuff, but artists and the like probably can't really work on the stuff where the physics experts are needed...
     
  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I've said it before, but here goes: wind. A little fluctuating wind (like the tdf surface undulations, which aren't a simple wave) with the occasional stronger gust, and you stop people being able to constantly drive at 99.98%.

    I imagine this would be moderately difficult (or time consuming, rather than difficult) to implement, and at first it may be global (same wind everywhere, like the rain), but it would be something.

    That then opens up the dynamics necessary for altitude, humidity, track temp and drying, etc. Unlock all that static stuff.
     
  16. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    ;);)
     
  17. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Physics reworks have been stalled LONG LONG LONG before MG came into the picture. With the exception of some tire work, minor aero tweeks and re balancing, almost zero progress has been completed regarding physics.
     
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  18. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    I am 100% agreeing with this. There is just so much potential to make the racing and driving itself much more dynamic and life like. But S397 is atm just letting other sims catch up and overtake them in that aspect. Doe shave the reason that graphics needed upgrading, but now that that is up to standards again, I do think it's time to shift development to the part where rF2 was the best at before.
     
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  19. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Not trying to be a fanboy with the defense of the tire behaviour but take a look at this video (I have not watched the whole thing just the first part). If this was a pole position rF2 lap it would be torn apart. Very agressive with lots of slip, yet a lap record (at least at the time don't know about now).


    Just for some balance, how about this video. I was bitching the other week that I didn't think rF2 did this kind of instant loss of control and split second spin very well. Low to medium speed corners you can easily do half spins on corner entry or exit, but never violent loss of control mid corner with the car swapping ends in a split second. She did a bit of a tankslapper kind of behaviour right before the spin though. I might try to replicate it. Maybe it does happen but I just don't drive fast enough! Does this ever happen to you?
     
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  20. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    That Mclaren might have had plenty of recoverable slip, but look how twitchy and fast it happens. That is a lot more like newest tires that S397 puts on their cars. Clearly a demanding car to drive like that, certainly have to be concentrated and can't sip tea at the same time and drive like that. Also those slips probably did cost some time, but because the lap of this track is so huge the lap record still could be achieved with this much commitment. Anyway, in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
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