Formula Vee

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Adrianstealth, Jun 14, 2021.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Some nice driving here in new monza layout, although not many turns, but still good display. I drive it in similar way.

    This is a great advice. Not being enthusiastic about something will never work out too good, you can't be great at something without getting fully immersed in it. To feel the cars, get fully in connection with them you must be focused almost all of your mind to it. If your thoughts are somewhere else, or as you say, being impatient and spoiled frame of mind - car will never work, especially if it is little bit more demanding of focus and skill. I can't imagine anyone winning races by thinking how they wish they would have been doing something else, or how they hate the car, unless against low level opponents.

    Fun story. One time when I was working on the car it felt really wrong, I also was in bad mood and wasn't exactly sure if I even wanted to play rF2 at the time. I did some tweaks to the physics of a car, but made a mistake and didn't save the tweaks. Next day, in good mood and thinking that I am driving "fixed" physics I loved the car, it felt much different, I felt the connection and I just could drive it as well and as aggressively as I was expecting. I was happy that my "fixes" worked, just to find out later that I actually drove exactly the same physics as the day before. Also exactly same everything. Just my mood and enthusiasm was different.

    In my country there is a saying "Morning is smarter than evening." I guess it would especially count for those evenings that follows hard and difficult days which leads to exhaustion, fatigue, bad mood, poor focus, worse reactions, lots of random thoughts and confusion. And these things happen so commonly for adults, who actually has to care about stuff. How can you expect to excel at any challenging activity in such state ? It should be expected that limits of performance at such state will drop. And when do people race mostly ? In the evening.

    This being said, I wish everyone to be happy good health, have everything in order and stable in your lives, and also be real.
     
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  2. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

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    I'll give it a go Obiwan!
     
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  3. atomed

    atomed Member

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    Hey, don´t fool us, maybe the steering wasn´t but the overall driving was smooth as eggs :p
     
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  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    To be honest, at first I thought it is driven with keyboard and with assists ON, till I looked more closely. It is surprising that it was possible to put such abrupt steering into understeer and so much of it. It was also a bit strange that tires didn't make any noise with that much understeer. It makes sense though, with understeer you can't have oversteer, unless front tires bites in, grips and causes snap oversteer, which would be instant spin with this car. To me it looks like an exploit, sure there is like a second in which you can safely understeer without upsetting the car, however it is also believable. In AC with W125 I used to use this technique quite a bit, also with cars from fifties with weak brakes and rather progressively sliding tires, you could use some understeer at entry to help scrubbing of speed, it is like extra brakes. In this Fvee "Alonso style" driving, I can't notice much of scrubbing to be happening - there is no sound, nor noticeable speed loss. It is just a bit strange.
     
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  5. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Maybe tire noise is low or turned off because it can get a bit annoying and even distracting at times. I like it very low or off most of the time. I feel like I drive better.

    Also, once the car has a certain amount of momentum and/or power, perhaps scrubbing the fronts would not slow it down too much? I mean, if more steering angle at the front always slowed the car down, then more steering angle would always equal more turn in, seeing as the car must tighten the line as it slows down (I think). And that obviously isn't the case, usually, the car dosn't turn better with more steering angle, it turns at the same radius or worse. Anyway, don't want to get into another one of those physics talks here because this stuff is always way more complex and it just goes down a rabbit hole! IMO some cars slow down with front scrubbing (low power to weight high relative grip), some cars don't. Because the FVee is a pretty light machine and has the weight at the back, plus low grip tire, maybe it's not too far off.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  6. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    This thread inspired me to knock out a quick video, seeing as I already wanted to do an overview of my sim driving tips, and this thread reminded me how good the Formula Vee is at learning and practising car control!

    Hopefully some smooth driving here though a couple of small mistakes ;)

     
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  7. likes_simracing

    likes_simracing Registered

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    To add to the above entries, I am not using the sharp steering to reduce speed. The car would, of course, just from the physics of it, but slowing down is not my concern at turn-in. I am really after the snap oversteer that comes after the understeer. It is not obvious sometimes but it is always there, and I can feel it on the steering. The trick is getting the snap oversteer to turn the car to the direction needed, but not gain angular momentum, because then it is very hard to control and would lose time to recover. The other hard part is inducing the understeer. On these types of nervous cars, it can whip the car around if not done correctly. When this happens, you just have to be ready to stop the quick steering movement, and be ready to ride the inside curb.

    I use this on almost all cars these days, in various sims (my youtube is basically doing this all the time :) ). I like using this on tail-heavy cars, like the FVee and the Porsche GT3 Cup. Here's an old vid of the Porsche Cup on a green Oulton Park NC (the steering here is set to 270 deg so those small steering movements are actually quite extreme; my FVee video above is at 330 deg).

     
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  8. atomed

    atomed Member

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    When I came to rf2 from iRacing I was astounded by the difficulty, deepness and sheer joy the rF2 Skippy was able to give me. I didn't think there would be a car I could love as much as that one but the FVee did it. It's a piece of art, so sensitive and unstable, one of my three favs in the sim.
     
  9. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Yes when you learn how to drive a challenging car it’s rewarding. But for me question is aren’t these two cars too difficult vs RL? Never drove it, but I read that iRacing skippy is quite realistic.
     
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  10. atomed

    atomed Member

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    I loved iracing's Skippy, but there was a great video, sadly in Spanish, where they compared both versions. Hope there's subtitles but overall conclusion is that iracing version was not realistic.

    Sorry to go off topic but I'd say both cars are similar.
     
  11. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Maybe updated tires in iRacing Skippy made it better. This video was made before the updates.
    Is F Vee also that difficult in iRacing?
     
  12. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    When you consider that they used to call Porsche 911's widow makers, I don't think it's a stretch to say that IRL cars that are light with the engine at the rear, skinny tires and rudumentarly suspension are pretty difficult to pilot, UNLESS you understand what the car is doing and have experience.

    The rear engined layout brings the centre of mass of the car closer to the rear, making the yaw axis pivot point of the car close or on the rear axle. This not only makes the axle (and thus entire car) more eager to rotate, it puts the front of the car during yawing on the outer diameter of a circle, rather than at the fulcrum. This gives the front end a more dramatic lateral motion, as if it were the business end of a tank turret.

    At least that's how I visualize it. My point is, yes it is harder to drive relative to other cars, but it's not THAT hard when you know how the car moves and have experience. If your mental visualization of how the car moves matches how it actually moves, then it not only becomes easier to drive, but an outright weapon of speed.
     
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  13. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Skippy was made long ago by ISI and I believe physics weren't touched by S397 since. It's been very long time since I drove rf2 F. Vee or Skippy, but I remember F. Vee in AMS1 was significantly easier to drive. Also AC Skippy mod was way easier to drive ( too easy for my taste). I think on regional tires Skippy was especially challenging. I believe IRL you feel much more through butt and in sim you only have FFB so it's much more difficult to feel the limit.
     
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  14. atomed

    atomed Member

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    Yes, regional are treaded tires and national semislicks. I´d also like to know iRacing fvee opinion, I´ve only seen GPlaps´ stating it is fun but has lots of work to be done. Last time I tried that sim it felt like my car was a 2d object moving forward o_O
     
  15. Love Guitars n Cars

    Love Guitars n Cars Registered

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    I find the iracing Vee to be very easy to drive compared to rF2 Vee. I prefer the AMS1 Vee as it seems to sit somewhere in the middle. Just my opinion though. I'm not fast. I was doing consistent 72 second lap times at Oulton Fosters with the iRacing Vee so I'm not fast at all so take it for what it's worth.
     
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  16. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    As always, more difficult doesn’t mean more realistic. Other major sims are advanced enough to model the car realistically. Except tire model, rF2 physics are not superior. But for instance you can even have AMS1 empirical tire model with curves dialed so close to RL that it’s much better than tires based on physical model.
    I have no idea if that’s the case for F. Vee.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Sure, you can have bad tyres with either approach. But are you really sure you're not sure? Because you keep "asking" whether it's too difficult in rF2, and talked about the physics not being updated for a long time (but, as above, good physics are simply good physics, so that itself doesn't mean something is wrong...)
     
  18. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Yes I’m not sure, but I suspect it’s a bit too difficult in rF2. I’m pretty sure IRL it’s easier to race, because of butt feel that you get etc.,
    If in two other respected sims F Vee is significantly easier to handle , then it’s natural to wonder if in rF2 it’s in deed too difficult in some aspect. Of course rF2’s Skippy and Vee can still be closest to RL. What I’m trying to say is that we don’t really know. But If a RL driver says that I.e.iRacing’s Skippy is pretty close to RL, then it’s some kind of validation. ( Problem is another RL driver can say it’s rubbish:) )

    Yes I noted that Skippy haven’t been developed, or updated by S397. So for instance tire model improvements weren’t implemented. Do we know how much real data ISI got for the Skippy? I don’t think so, but I guess it was less than recent DLC officially licensed cars.
    Vee hasn’t been done by S397 either , but IIRC they helped Reiza.
    I actually used to like the cars made by iSI more. But when I went back to some of them after long break - something felt off. AFAIK ISI cars’ physics weren’t touched by S397 , so it probably was my subjective feeling.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    High difficulty will keep on getting more and more common reason of disbelieve, complaints and doubt in simracing. I'll avoid pointing out reasons to avoid wall of text.

    Surely more difficult doesn't mean more realistic, but the same could be said about the opposite - why it isn't said nearly as much ?

    If you are expressing suspicion about something being too difficult than reality, you need to look at the reality, understand the issue. When simracers say that something is too difficult than reality without looking into reality and fairly comparing themselves to high level real life racers, then they are putting on whole simracing in regress.

    Also "seat feel" has been popular rationalization of arguments to keep on making simulation easier. While seat feel argument might have some ground, it is quite abstract thing, and nobody who understands how simulation works would wish for car dynamics to be sacrificed in order to compensate some quite subjective sensation that no one could define how much it actually helps, it is absolutely separate thing from cars physics. And then again... no one thinks about things where some reality specific aspects, and those same g forces included makes driving fast harder than it would ever be in simulation.

    I respect those who are interested in understanding where the realism is. IMO desire to win and be best is what makes one a racer, but learning and getting to know reality well while also pursuing driving and racing skills mastery makes one a simracer. I don't want to be too negative, but a lot of simracers are just racers. Thats not a shame, but it doesn't help with pushing simulation optimally where it should be going.

    Damn... and I have it... wall of text... and I lost half an hour. Aaand I wasted your time reading, if you are still reading - I respect you, and I am sorry :D
     
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  20. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Surely though chassis flex also comes into it too? A chassis with zero flex on a car like that would be dramatically different than one with flex. Or do those other sims have chassis flex? But yes, physics is pretty much physics, it's the way that surfaces interact with each other (eg friction) and the properties of the objects (i.e flex), that's the hard part (and probably a million other tiny things), which is where rF2 is (presumably) more realistic. I think the dynamic nature of the physics makes it harder, but then easier once you get a feel for it. All other sims feel more like driving a spreadsheet, like controlling a character in a video game (ams1 to lesser extent), rF2 feels the most dynamic, so you've got to 'feel' it IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
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