So; what's up with the flaws?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Navigator, May 11, 2021.

  1. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    I think I've been one of the people who has been called a fanboy quite a few times, nonetheless I had a rant or two about the wierd priorities especialy at the beginning of the year. I agree with you that things could be fixed faster and that some long standing issues are taking longer than desirable from the end user perspective. That said, in the last two months things have been moving in a good direction with the Studio actually fixing alot of stuff, adding some nice features into the new UI and finaly updating their older content to something that I would call a standard. It's great to boot up an old track like Lime Rock and to know and see that it's recieved a valuable facelift wich will make the product more sustainable at the end and help fill the competition system. Let's face it, most people in iRacing don't head straight to the shop to buy AAA tracks. They boot up the game and run MX5 cup cars at Lime Rock, Summit Point or Okayama.

    Do you think you can hook up people with content that looks 10 years old in times like these, when the sim market is as competetive as it is. And rF2 actually has alot of technology besides it's physics engine that isn't up to spec anymore, from the sound engine, to parts of the graphics pipeline and remnants of the the UI. I would like to see more focus on physics features aswell, but with a complex software like rF2 it's fully understandable that things won't move as fast as we think it should and it's nice to know that there is a future for a product like rF2. With that in mind it's actually important to note that S397 brought this game much further than ISI could have ever done. This isn't a bash at ISI as they built a great foundation, but if it wasn't for S397, we wouldn't be having this discussion. So much about "game is ded". If it wasn't for them we would be left with games like AC, ACC, R3E or AMS2 or PC1/2 and rF2 it it's 2016 form. Not bad products, but not quite the same if you ask me.
     
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  2. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    Fanboy or not,
    I have about everything you can buy in the race simulation genre.
    And know what it's like in real life.
    There is a lot to like about RF2.
    And sometimes it frustrates.
    A true fan keeps giving constructive feedback though, giving up takes away your right to rant.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  3. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Didn't read all the posts, and being one long time member i can say... IT'S TIME to fix those annoying bugs like the track and tire temps/pressure aswell as the weather. There are more but i think those should be the main PRIORITY for S397, rF2 is losing and it could be dusting competition! A closer to a finished product will bring more people in, more than more and more DLC's, so, like i said, DO IT NOW!
     
  4. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    This so much. The potential is there, but S397 needs to use that potential at some point, otherwise it will stay just potential. Other sims are not sitting still.
     
  5. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Imagine RF2 in the hands of someone who tweaks physics often and has the beautiful tire model that Rf2 has, trying to add new features to it... Imagine that and imagine the issues that plague exploitative driving being fixed pretty quick by a team really focused on that. I mean, I know S397 inherited a mess and needed to do things themselves, but even for a small team they are taking their sweet time with everything and for what I know it wasn't just during this period where they were involved in some MGS projects. They rather be really improving fixing things, as it's more than anything sad to see such a good engine not being fully explored.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  6. GTClub_wajdi

    GTClub_wajdi Registered

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    Yea. I’m to an old rfactor2 fan ( 9 years). Some issues are there from the beginning and I’m tired to mention them again and again..
    Tire temperatures, pressure....the aerodynamic physics where Studio397 hasn’t improved since the first days of this sim.
    AI ?! When it was the last time AI got an important update?!
    The Sound department?! When was the last time they updated it?!
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  7. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    What do your prioritize? Can you suffer with an LMP2 following the pitting GTE for an entire lap of Le Mans "IF" the cars sound better while they taxi around the circuit? Or would you rather be able to closely follow a car thru Eu Rouge but not see what your tire temps were up to? And how about, now I'm getting silly, sorry in advance, how about the growth rate of the trees and shrubbery? Shouldn't vegetation growth match real world rates so that we experience what drivers do when they come back year after year to the same circuit? (told ya it was silly...I warned ya!)
     
  8. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, what's the point about being silly? Nothing of what he mentioned is in the realm of the absurd and actually sort of absurd is how many things could probably have been done and I guess not done because of either laziness or some lack of competence/efficency that is lacking in S397. I would rather they went too far then what they've did to this moment, not doing enough. I mean, it would be cool to have some type of season to the tracks too, where vegetation also changed... So it's not that far fetched. They don't even prioritize the most important thing! Physics! They might be quite good already, but there are always some little details that should be revised and from what I've been following they haven't done that work in the past, but at least that seems to be changing hopefully.
     
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  9. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    They do deserve some recognition, but still, just because they have not let it die doesn't mean that the work they've done is anything really impressive.
     
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  10. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I heard somewhere that Rfactor 2 Hud displays surface temps, not inner temps. I think Lazza can confirm this, as where I've read they said inner temps can be checked from telemetry data.
     
  11. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Nieubermesch I know you are coming from the right place, but be very careful about speaking for people's motivation and competency - none of us can know from the outside exactly what's going on. Many of us have opinions about the game and its development (and which are priorities), and I think it's fine to talk about our interests and priorities (and even the current state of things) but there's still a line you should avoid crossing.

    Well, yes, but the surface temps are higher, so that's not really relevant to the post you quoted. We also already went back and forth a few more times since that post so I'm not sure I see a need to pull it back out and reply to it now. With all respect I'd also point out that although the game doesn't have a manual and doesn't provide such specifics in the game itself, the fact that it shows surface temps is widely known or discernible with some familiarity with the telemetry the game provides. You shouldn't just be 'hearing about it', and you should perhaps avoid posting it if you're not sure.

    Very often the people talking loudest about physics issues (and I'm not denying there aren't physics issues, at least with particular cars, and I'm also very well aware of missing physics features... but now I'm just trying to cover all bases to avoid someone quoting my post and saying "but what about...", so please take it as read that I DO get it...) seem to be jumping to conclusions not based in either physical or rF2 reality.

    Unfortunately some of the discussions among very knowledgeable people has either been buried in discord or happens privately, which is fine as far as outcomes go, but doesn't provide much visibility for anyone else. Also unfortunate, IMO, is that Paul replied in one of the rambling physics threads to acknowledge that it was being looked into, which might give the impression nothing was going to happen until those threads happen - which I strongly believe wasn't the case.

    Reading a couple of your posts in here just leaves me thinking you need to get outside and take a break, honestly. I think you're falling into the echo chamber trap. We all care, but it's only a game. (no, seriously!)
     
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  12. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, you might be correct about that, but I see so many people here (older users than me) being more adamant and openly criticizing S397 and I don't remember you going out of the way to point that out for them... But alright, I take it and I also don't want to come into the Rfactor2 forum, being an actual fan and actually appreciating the work S397 done, but I can't deny some of the problems of their methodology in the past and I was just wondering what it is, but I know they are quite a small studio. So I'll say sorry if I might have offended the work of some people. I would never do better, but c'mon, I am not selling anything or writing things like the most realistic simulation too...

    Well, now to the tires. Well, I was actually going to post that earlier and might have been bad timing, but I mentioned that because I know Core temps are more stable then surface temperatures and coming from Assetto Corsa (and assuming a little by logic) that core temps would reach and stay at say, 80°, while surface temps would of course rise much more, but would then also lower again to lower temps. Some people might come from sims that do it this way and (I did myself) think that they might represent Core temps and never see them reach those higher stable values and that's why I thought I would mention it, as when it comes to tire temps it might be actually correct if such was the case.

    Well, what echo chamber? I mean, there are issues that are fairly proven at this point, so I try to only be insistent on those and be cautious about others, while I also am defending RF2 a lot, prasing it, but I certainly am passionate about Sim racing and I already said that what I hope is more fixing wich I aknowledge is already happening (except some other resources are probably in use for other projecta of MGS, wich is mentioned by both the studio and MGS).

    I am quite happy with RF2 now, but I could be more and it's not like it's an unrealistic expectative to have, S397 just have disappointed many of us when it comes to some things, because they've been delievering in some others, of course... I guess they just need more human resources and I am a patient man, so don't take me wrong!
     
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  13. RusRob

    RusRob Registered

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    OK, So I am pretty new to rF2, so I will ask a question that may already have been addressed.

    On the physics issues. I have read that some cars are worse than other and some are not bad.

    Is this really a rF2 physics flaw or is it a car physics flaw?

    If guys are abusing the tire temp and the Castor issue, couldn't this be addressed by limiting those adjustments?

    I recall when we were working on rF1 mods physics Bristow would leave most of the adjustments wide open so the beta drivers could play around with the setting. This was done for 2 reasons.

    1. Was to find the best ranges for some of those settings for the final "lock-in"

    2. It would allow him to see if there were any exploits that could be taken advantage of.

    I know rF2 has changed a lot but could the physics issues be "fixed" by limiting the adjustments?

    I also asked this earlier, but could these issues be resolved by 'semi-fixed" setups for on line racing?
    I have no idea if you have that ability, but it seems like it would be a rather easy fix.

    I may just be talking crazy here but...

    Cheers,
    Bob
     
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  14. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Funny you say that. The tyre pressures are already limited. The hot pressures are I already very close to the IRL recommended tyre pressures. This is talking about GT3 cars. There is a reason they have the same limitations IRL. It's not really wrong to some extend. It's mostly the thing that tyres can go down/get damaged because of the low pressures in rF2.

    Going to the 'detaching' ARB for example, definitely after the BOP update from GT3, they are not effective at all in some cases (only in cases where it makes sense). In the USF2000, the Formula 3 it doesn't work at all for example.

    GT3 told us it wasn't as much of an rF2 physics problem, but more of a content problem. Same goes for damage model.

    The biggest reason that soft are usually used, and hards never, is simply because track temps dont affect tyre temps. Tyres can't grain/blister from too low or too high temps. Tyre pressures are so effective when low, because the tyre can't get damaged/go flat when tyre pressures are still low. Also very noticable is the low pressure tyre 'wobble' you see in F1 for example when they are sliding, is not present in rF2 at all.

    Will this be fixed with a fixed set? No, because cold tyre pressure are actually that low because they need the hot tyre pressures to not get too high. Thats why physics problems needs to be fixed by the root, not with a bandaid
     
  15. RusRob

    RusRob Registered

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    @Remco Majoor I know enough about physics to get myself in trouble but it seemed like a logical idea to just limit those things. Thanks for your explanation of it. It makes sense why that wouldn't be a fix.

    Too bad someone couldn't come up with a work-around, rather than wait for S397 to do it.

    Well it was an idea anyway... I am a believer if you put enough minds on something it can usually be done.

    Any if S397 saw that guys were trying fix issues without their help they may decide it is their best interest to lend a hand.

    That is what happened in Nascar Heat. at the time we were just a bunch of hackers messing with a dead game. They saw that we were breathing new life into it by figuring out how to mod it that they allowed one of their programmers (David Brock) to work with us and make changes. Nascar Heat lived on for at least another 5 years past its expiration date... ;)

    So I am of the mindset that almost anything IS possible.

    Cheers,
    Bob
     
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  16. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I actually normally raise the pressures to 160kpa and get around the 26 PSI when hot (180kpa). I am sure that going lower also should create more heat build up and also can have the potential to actually make the hot pressures higher than starting with with higher pressures, but don't quote me on it.

    They need to do what they did to GT3 (at the very least) to alliviate the problems of yaw angles that one can throw cars around and excessive slip angles that we see aliens use. I don't drive like that, but if I want in the future to enter competitive races I want to know I am not keeping because I am worse, not because they are using that driving style I already tried and also am faster with...
     
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Not to labour the point, but the excessive sliding is only faster if it's actually faster - I've seen videos suggesting it isn't much, or at all, slower in some cars, but asserting that it's faster needs more verification than someone doing a few laps back to back.

    I think I remember a video from you where you went several seconds faster by sliding, but your non-sliding driving looked like you had bought the tyres yourself and were generating hardly any heat at all. Driving faster than that while sliding excessively doesn't prove it's the faster technique.

    And just for balance, I did see some Formula E (rF2) footage with all the (pro) drivers sliding around a hairpin. This definitely wasn't realistic and was obviously faster because they were all doing it. So there's definitely something that could be improved, but we can't blanket everything by extension.
     
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  18. Mitch9

    Mitch9 Registered

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    Sounds like what Reiza has been doing with AMS2.... It gives people the sense that "stuff is being worked on" but honestly, every update you see a lot of tweaks yet almost nothing actually fixed; still haven´t had a decent race with the ai over there... That constant tweaking approach is just as bad as the s397 "someday things will be fixed"; if they were to release a bunch of "physics tweaks" every month they would still be flooded with complaints over minor bugs and weird car/ai behaviour... I don´t want to be complacent but there´s no chance we´re getting, say, a proper drivetrain anytime soon, so I´ll just keep ranting about the ui for now.
     
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  19. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I was reading some of my posts when quoted and I need to be careful with typos! :D

    I was analysing some laps of a pro driver and I saw them still sliding, or mantaining some yaw angles that felt sketchy to say the least, but that I can only speculate about although it actually points to rather being about aero, not tire behavior in that case.

    The point of it all is, how hard should it be in real life to equal a world record lap by drifting/sliding, let alone beat those times? I was confirmed by a pro player that their laps applying the known exploits are very very close to the best time by esports players, and when I actually tried and drove the car with no care, anti roll bars and low wing setup, just in the first lap I went from 2:20 to 2:15 on Spa. I actually saw a clean lap that reached 2:14ish, but the record lap was still 3 seconds faster by driving the way I mentioned.

    Yeah, I agree my videos weren't really well made, but I was just getting my two cents in and giving some rough idea with the comparison. I will do a better one soon.

    Oh, and of course, I know that we need to separate RF2 physics from specific car physics. When I mean issues, I mean issues of some bad developed aspects or something like that. Other physics issues or lack of simulation systems are well known too, but not what I focus more about.

    I rant about the cars but I am still mostly driving them, so it's not like I hate them, because I don't drive to be a world record player, but try to stay within the limits of what should be possible and to drive cars with strange setups gives me no pleasure at all. Believe me that when I confront RF2 issues I really am coming from a place of "get your stuff together man, you have more potential than anybody else and are wasting it for no good reason!".
     
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  20. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Oh, of course, work should actually be like physics, where you should go somewhere :D:D. The rest is wasted energy!

    Joking apart, yeah, trying to fix and improve will not mean you can improve it to a good point or fix it all, but Reiza have a big problem on their hands, the Madness engine.

    I think that when they bring some undeveloped features and fix some of the issues that plague the sim on a physics level is when they'll be seeing the numbers of players rise. We need reasons to be talking about RF2 being the absolute king again when it comes to physics and features, aside from the great physics base it's built upon.
     

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