Does sliding the car get punished in Rfactor2

I agree, it's very noticeable on the front tires

 

To be honest the more I look into this then more disappointed I am . When you think about the possible fix, even more... Not sure how many car mods I have probably have this forgiving nature due to how tires are developed by them. Anyone knows if there is a sort predefined tire that modders can use, or they have to be mostly developed from the ground up? There are still many cars around that, probably due to an expected handling simillar to what Rfactor2 has been offering over the years, do have the same problems. Hoping that Studio 397 gives a notice to most modders about how previous developed models were faulty in this aspect and gives incentive to creators to update them.

 

You're getting ahead of yourself They would first have to admit there is an issue with their own creations and fix them. And I don't even see the former happening any time soon, not to mention the latter.

 

There is a library of readymade tyres that can be used, but also a separate spreadsheet to help with building tyres from scratch (or bringing in and modifying an existing tyre).

Should avoid talking about "models", as all tyres are running on the same model. This is good news, because if any tyre behaves in a way you like it shows the underlying model doesn't contain inherent flaws (at least in terms of those that influence desired behaviour...)

 

Yes, I think a lot of us aren't expecting a team that should be experts to just listen to our complaints and just start changing what they've developed. I think we are expecting that they look into and if evidence proves it so, then they should make some sort of update.

That's what I thought, from reading some details of physics release where many mention the tyres are the same ones from studio 397, so I guess they are referring to that library and probably they change some of the parameters, but some of them - like the behavior we have been talking about - remain there, with exception of people who really go into it and know for sure what they are doing with what I hear saying is a complex model.

When I mean model is just the physical model, not really the tyres creates from there. Not sure what term to apply, but you're right.

 

Sounds like you're assuming those library tyres have the behaviour you don't want, but most/all of them were there before the GTs and other DLC came out. The DLC is encrypted so we can't see what was used, but likely they developed tyres specifically for that licensed content.

 

No, it's not that, I am just trying to guess if that's what's happening, as even if those were there before the DLC, the devs could have build there own's from there, I don't know. I know it's encrypted, I tried to look there myself. Those and some other mods from third parties are encrypted, wich is a shame as I would like to see what I could do with some "guess" work, if you know what I mean.

 

@Nieubermesch Think of each car's tyres as its own physical tyres. The tyre library isn't special, it's just some examples they made available to help people struggling to make their own.

Each tyre has its own shape, and that determines its behaviour. There are also some parameters that further influence what happens (especially regarding temperature and wear) but consider them part of the tyre too.

The model underneath is like the laws of physics and chemistry, but of course it's not perfect and is certainly missing some real life features.

So what they almost certainly do with all DLC (and they did it with the BT44 too, with a blog detailing the process) is design and build the physical tyre to match the specs and references. They aren't pulling tyres off a rack.

 

@Nieubermesch I would actually go as far as saying this is only present in the GT cars, not even in other cars by S397. Today I was practicing for the Tatuus FT-60 CS race, and I remembered this discussion, so I started experimenting,and I found that, even tough you can get away with sliding the car too much on one corner due to its high downforce, three corners of that and the tires give up. I'm also used to giving very small inputs with this car, as I find it goes a lot faster that way (like expected).
Just now, I was taking a few laps with the BMW M2 CS Racing around the nordschleife, and even though, as expected from a BMW ,it loves going a bit sideways to go fast, its a very fine line between going just enough and overdoing it, causing a spin or just a big time loss.

 

Was just watching some gt3 racing and hotlaps and it certainly seems like a lot of behaviors we get on Rfactor2 are definetly realistic, even some understeer exploit, as by my observation makes the car lose some speed on the cars and then the corner can be taken. What seems excessive rotation might come from the expectation that this cars are supposed to be pointy. It seems like I and others are starting to repeat ourselves, but I guess trying to watch over and over again, what some of us can actually do (mostly compare to what a race car like this does in real life), is important to not be lead by false expectations. There seems to be an issue though, just like Slip Angel said, that I believe some of this states are too easy to mantain and probably the fix is to that thin line between grip and slide, when tyres should give up probably because of higher temperatures, isn't happening.

That video I left is to demonstrate that ACC also suffers/allows/possess that same characteristics of Rfactor2. In the end I think we should be careful to not go overboard. It's also quite neat to see how closely suspension in Rfactor2 actually resembles real life. There is a certain feeling of weight but the suspension working makes it seem lighter than what it actually was, something ACC definetly doesn't show for me.

 

I have to buy that BMW, as I love to drive road cars and I am guessing that one is close to that. I also find the nordshleife quite more difficult on the cars because of it's bumpiness. When I tested there some of the GT cars I was finding them to have become more realistic then on other tracks.

The LMP3 Norma also seems to suffer from sliding forgiveness, as I have a video of that and I feel it's quite sketchy.

I understand, all you've said is actually what my believe was, it maybe was more about the language I applied that didn't help. It's really quite an advanced model, I didn't really thought it was that "physical" until not so long ago.

What I was referring is more about maybe some modders take some of those pre defined tires and build upon them, but some things are left unchanged, making general behavior of tires slip (between simillar race tires) feel sort of simillar on the limit. Now, I could be totally wrong, just a guess of what could be happening. Even if not pulled from the library, something about some core features of the tyre creation can't be changed? I don't know.

 

I do get a picky regarding language used sometimes, yeah - because other people see a statement that you and I understood to mean one thing, and they read it another way and run with it. In this case it was more that your words indicated you might have been assuming something, so I wanted to clear that up.

Broadly there isn't a base tyre or characteristic that all others can't escape, and that includes any example tyres - it's not like you need to pick one with a certain 'flavour' to it at the start, build from that, and that defines how your car will handle. There are limitations when building tyres in that if you don't do it right it may get unstable during the building process, and some of the more recent additions might need reining in for the same reasons, but I couldn't say whether those technical limitations mean that all tyres have a common base feel.

(it seems to me there might sometimes be minor instabilities that aren't bad enough to halt the build process but still come through in the end result. At least I can only guess that's the cause of some strange FFB occasionally felt in some cars including DLC - it's of a transient nature, so I feel like the physics just passes through a rough patch and then it's fine again - but pure conjecture)

The reason I push for 'proof' is partly to try and isolate where the issue actually is. Say a particular car seems to grip too well during understeer: it shouldn't be too hard to measure the rotation with different steering input and identify the issue in terms of the response (a graph or similar). Then you can try another car, other cars, and see if they're the same. If the issue disappears in any car, you've basically eliminated a core issue and it looks like the mod (probably tyres). Then you can try it at low speed and high speed, to ascertain the role of aero. That way you can actually move on from "there's an issue!" to "There's an issue with these cars; it seems to be related to <xyz>"

On modding with the example tyres, I think there are two approaches: basically use the tyre as-is, if it performs fine just adjust some of the realtime parameters (things like optimum temps, wear/degradation rates), or, use the example shape as a base and then try modifying it. This second approach should be done with a target in mind (you might run some tests on the original tyre and generate some slip graphs to understand how it behaves; then decide how you'd like it to change, and try to change it physically to achieve that).

If there are 20 example tyres (just an example), there could be 0, 4, 10, or all 20 that exhibit the same behaviour being discussed (having data would again help to confirm). So working from them and modifying them to varying degrees could carry zero or massive (or anywhere in between) risk of having undesired behaviour - but the car itself might create, exacerbate, or hide those same issues. Ultimately it's up to the modder to test their car and fix any problems they find, where possible.

 

What if acc is not that realistic either ?

 

Oh, I wasn't saying it is, I was just showing ACC also does it

 

I totally agree with the premise of finding proof, but also think that the devs given enough reason to suspect of something should themselves look at it. It certainly helps to have the communitty helping with that, but not everyone wants to spend hours looking into that. I'm starting to miss driving more than just constatly jump in and out of cars and try to find what's broken, but yes, if you are going to affirm strongly about an issue and you firmly believe it at least try to back that up and do the work.

I think that some mods have better feel on that limit we've been discussing, so even if there was a limitation on the core tyre creation, it can be made to behave "well".

 

The devs have a lot on their hands at the moment, so until they have finished the current stage of development, the most we can do is what lazza suggested, so that if we do find something, they will have something to work with, in the future.
Right now, physics are the best aspect of this sim, and it needs bringing up in other areas, namely online racing, as that attracts players, players buy content, content funds s397 to be able to work on improving the core game...

Also, I would try forgetting this discussion for a while and just go drive don't get frustrated over this... Enjoy the sim

EDIT whoop quoted wrong post

 

No problem there. That's what I've been doing right now, just took the BMW M8 or something like that and drove it at bathurst as I find that one to be one of the best. Maybe it's about the differential setup, as it's not shown...

All in all I agree, the physics are better than any other in my opinion, so even if some refining could be fine, I've been loving the PBR shaders, the tracks and cars they've been making. A bit costly though, compared to other sims of course, but also cheaper compared to others.

 

Yet you are ahead of yours, before they "admit" a problem, there must be a problem to admit...

 

Well, even @mantasisg said that something is off. At least for GT3/GTE I kinda understood that most here agree about that. Again, I might be wrong though.

 

Yes the car on defaults is understeery.
That does not mean the car or the tyres are broken.
It's tunable out with perfectly logical setup changes (the same ones as real life) which I show in a separate thread here with video.
Many modding groups* will offer a car on defaults that is understeery. The reason is it makes it more "approachable" IE easier to drive. Oversteery cars are not nice for average drivers, they spin off the road backwards. ( famous Walter Rohrl quote "understeer is when you see the tree you hit, oversteer us when you don't)
whereas an understeery car is easy to drive and from there you adjust it to what you prefer and to even out tyre wear.
I watched Michis full Portugal stream and he loved the car. What the chatter was on YT from his viewers is a little peripheral in my view.
*This includes Apex Modding for whom I created the default setup for their 911 GT3. Once I optimised it for performance and tyre wear they softened the rear ARB to induce a little understeer to set the default.