POLL // How important are physics a priority for you for rF2 (your wish for the rF2 future) ?

Discussion in 'Wish Lists' started by DrivingFast, Nov 22, 2019.

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How important are physics a priority for you for rF2 ? (your wish for the rF2 future)

  1. I wish that physics remains about the same as today

    7 vote(s)
    5.6%
  2. I wish physics is a little better but not more

    16 vote(s)
    12.9%
  3. I hope that physics is significantly improved

    27 vote(s)
    21.8%
  4. I want physics to be S397's number one priority, ahead of other priorities

    74 vote(s)
    59.7%
  1. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    we have to be fair, Studio 397 gave a huge change to rfactor 2 ... it has improved many things ... but in terms of leaving things behind and in terms of tires it is a chestnut


    PD-and I will not vote a poll that seems to me badly done
     
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  2. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Does anyone here plays iracing ?
    I see they doing tons of updates is tyre model good or bad ?
    Are there any exploits in iracing ?

    After seeing new content in iracing i'm curious how it is doing.
     
  3. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I've tried Iracing for a little while because there was a promotion during lockdown.
    My pretty short experience is: racing online is exciting, even in entry level pick-up races with mazda Mx5, I even managed to win a race.
    Briefly tested oval racing, fun but not much difficult for someone who spent years playing Indianapolis 500 back in the days. :D
    The main difference with RF2 is that driving IS NOT FUN.
    With my poor G27, FFB is not much entertaining or informative, it is honest, nothing to make you scream.
    In the end partecipating in a championship get soon quite expensive, even if the car is in the base package and maybe one or two tracks.
    In a matter of weeks I lost interest and closed my account.
    I invite you do to the same, maybe there will be Xmas promotions, give it a try, then decide yourself.
     
  4. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Ye in way thanks to covid that sim racing in general had to increase their pace of improvement.
    real drivers complained alot about iracing tyre so they had to do something which is a plus for us.
    Now i see iracing going through lots of updates and tweaks regularly and now it has one of my favourite GT car lamborghini.
    I might have to give it a try even though it is quite expensive but so far from the youtube videos i think the quality is very high.
    Thanks for response and sorry for the harsh words earlier.
    Sometimes i get too much focused on realism and hence i get frustrated with issues etc. Will definitely try to be polite next time.
     
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  5. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Ok so i downloaded the spa mod (not dlc, also the video i posted was on same track..) to see my "normal" vs "excessive steering " with porsche supercup
    I did achieve a 2:22 on my normal style with non rubbered line but i turned off fuel consumption.
    Definitely i could go faster with normal style.
    At pouhon in the video that guy was using excessive steering angel and i tried it.. i saw that g-meter or that g-axis does get any higher Lateral G with adding more than necessary steering, which is a relief.
    BUT the problem is not over, the problem is that even with excessive steering the car steers more...albeit with a very tiny penalty of scrubbing the speed.
    So in non technical term i think the fix should be in such a way that ->>

    By adding excessive steering the car it should go straight more rather than turning(providing rotation of any sort).
    Basically increasing the severity of understeer will fix it quite easily.

    Also the ability of front tyre to scrub speed while at 100% throttle might touch too much, this is amplifying the problem. As now the tyres are scrubbing speed means front tyre has regained small amount of grip back.
    This phenomenon afaik is not totally unrealistic BUT it is far too forgiving in RF2.
    So in a way even if you are lossing speed by excessive steering angle the car is STILL following the line.


    Now how to translate this into physics values is upto the devs.
    I hope they take notice.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2020
  6. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Slip_Angel are you checking actual logged telemetry for g-force and yaw rate?
     
  7. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    No, i'm using the in-game g force axis thing. That shows in Replay U.I
    Is that not good ?
     
  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    G force tends to bounce around a bit, I'd trust a graph more. And I'd certainly look at a yaw rate graph to measure rotation, rather than judging it by eye.
     
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  9. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Yea that would be more convincing evidence. But just to be clear it is quite visible in reply especially in slo motion.
    I saw in slo motion that there is a peak reached on that g force axis with precise steering input, it doesn't go up with more steering angle
    BUT what happens with more steering angle is that car now starts to scrub speed which in turn gives slight grip back to front (as car is basically slowing down) and hence it can still follow the line even with more than needed steering angle.

    This is not optimum but penalty of driving like this is quite low and sometimes it can be beneficial on some corners to drive with such excessive steering input.
     
  10. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Beware! Replay, unless recorded at maximum fidelity (and probably not even that) is not an exact recording of what happen in real time or how something happen is real time, neither is observing something through a online server, you lose the fine details.
    Telemetry is the only mean that can tell you the truth.
     
  11. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    yes telemetry is the ultimate proof no doubt. I think you are misunderstanding bit. I'm describing what i saw in my own driving and replay.
    I noticed the things i talked about in earlier post while driving myself PLUS then i checked it on replay as well, which further solidified what i just experienced.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2020
  12. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    It's solid for you, that have experienced this.
    From the point of view of the people who read your posts, your point will be solid with telemetry data.
    I'm not telling that you're wrong. I'm telling that it's difficult to convince others without data.
     
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  13. Kahel

    Kahel Registered

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    Here's an example of 'excessive steering input effect' in the sim... from someone that is able to find the limit of the physic engine. We do not want Slip_Angel to feel 'excessively' alone in this matter :)



    And a quote from Risto Kappet about that 'issue' and the proposed fix:
    ''Well what you suggest could be cheated/overridden from other steering sensitivity or external wheel ranges settings, doesnt fix the issue.
    Issue is the physics, the physics need to be prioritized over everything else, to cure the fact that extreme slip angles gain you laptime so easily, or don't penalize you quickly enough. Almost identical behaviour on almost every rF2 car.''
     
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  14. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Really appreciate the help mate, this is exactly what i'm talking about.
    It is not just understeer , it is the core tyre behaviour, so it goes for both understeer and oversteer.
    In my simple terms
    Understeer in RF2 car starts to follow to the line even with excessive steering at even with quite high temps and at the very little cost of speed.
    Generally IRL strategy for understeer is to ease of the gas and steering but RF2 allows you to (if you are precise) follow the line without getting off the throttle but by adding tad bit more steering. so basically that acts as a getting off throttle situation BUT slightly better because you don't lose momentum with this RF2 steering technique.
    Oversteer also gives too much forward momentum for the amount of rotation, i.e in rf2 you can be more sideways but still move forward relatively more than if it were a IRL situation.
    The peak grip is correct in rf2 IMO , but how that grip is lost and regained and how effective it is even AFTER the peak of the tyre that is where the problem lies.
     
  15. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Do this can be done in tracks like Sebring? I now understand what you meant, but, I think 50% of the problem is in the uniformity both in 3D dimensions and in grip terms of road surfaces. In R/L asphalt is not so smooth and is not completely clean and solid : debris detach from the surface and pile up here and there, grip varies on a small scale level, so it would be very hard to keep those understeers under control.
    Then there is the fact that R/L tires would get damaged/destroyed in a few turns on surface irregularities, a feature that is unfortunately missing, because this is not the same kind of wear that is implemented in tire simulation, is different and would affect the very structure of the tires.
    Unfortunately I don't think there is a easy cure for this issue... unless it depend as you suggest that friction is not correctly applied as drag in this instance. I mean, it could be something as simple as a variable missing from a formula, to a very complex simulation issue that would need a complete revision of the engine.
     
  16. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    I don't own sebring, but if i may
    Lets say this issue is not that noticeable on sebring but that doesn't justify this behaviour on smoother surfaces.
    I don't think that this issue will require complete revision etc but definitely not easy fix BUT definitely fixable.
    it is doable i'm pretty confident about even though i don't know the code....i'm hopeful and trying to help as much as i can.
     
  17. Kahel

    Kahel Registered

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    Any track... any car... driving with very low steering lock is a very well known trick to go fast in rf2... I heard about it years ago.
     
  18. Pauli Partanen

    Pauli Partanen Registered

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    This poll made me laugh more than it should :D
    iRacing is nowdays very good with the physics and easily best VR experience of any sim.
     
  19. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    @Postipate thanks for the info.

    Back to topic, Now that we all pretty much agree on the topic..the question is how to fix it ?
    how to get devs involved ?
     
  20. Pauli Partanen

    Pauli Partanen Registered

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    Cannot really do anything. Just wait
     

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