Food for thought: Damage model

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Remco Majoor, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,068
    Watching the GT racing that has been going on in both the pro and challenge series, made me believe that the damage model really is in need of an upgrade. Quick explanation here:

     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
    DriverJay, dylbie, Kahel and 2 others like this.
  2. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    984
    Likes Received:
    984
    And it is not as much of an engine issue as such. For some reason recent content seems to be less and less destructible, up to a point that I am no longer interested in it anymore :( and it pains me to say that because it is great otherwise. Luckily mods work better in that regard, but not many of them.

    As a side note... I just got back into good old GTR2 and man, the damage, smoke (white and black), burning engines, flying wheels, mechanical failures on older cars - where is all that nowadays? It is part of the racing, and it is one of the things that keeps people from wallriding/unrealistic racing full of contact. I even had a conversation with my wife and friends when they asked me why do I play such an old game - when I explain that modern games come with no or broken safety car (rules are part of autosport), no liveries from real series and very little damage, reaction was - well, that sucks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
  3. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    imo "esports" will keep things going in that direction
    the next sim title focused on... well... simulating racing instead of views on youtube may get damage right
    But I'm afraid to have proper clean racing you'd need a model with virtual credits (not earned with real money) where you must pay for repairs as well (and I mean even pick up races) because that in theory could force people to learn the limits of their own skills. This model would give very little online player base tho. But with some proper AI then it'd be nice to drive offline as well.
     
    Emery and The Iron Wolf like this.
  4. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,068
    It genuinely isn't an esports problem. This happens in normal leagues as well. Look at iRacing, there you can see that there are far fewer crashes in the top championships. Drivers know that if they get close, their car can get damaged and not trying to bash their netcode here, but also you can get turned when being in close proximity to other cars.

    Virtual credits are not needed for this. A proper damage model would instantly make the drivers feel when they wen't over the line. Flat tires, bent/broken toe links, broken winglets, broken splitters etc. Virtual credits are indirectly a safety rating, which just makes it so that people will farm it. The infamous "I'm just here for SR" at iRacing rings a bell for me.

    If you go for a hit now in rF2, you are pretty sure to come out of it no problem, which makes it advantageous for drivers to make contact. If you have a big chance your performance will be hit massively because of contact, people will think twice about the risk.
     
  5. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    Disagree, especially if wear of engine and other parts is saved rather than getting new stuff every time you hit esc. Also if you get your car totalled you'd have to get a new one ;)
    Then this wouldn't run on itself, a mix with safety rating is necessary. It has to be a complete system.
    Proper damage would help, no doubt. But not enough.
    Ofc virtual credits isn't going to happen with current devs, imo.
     
    The Iron Wolf likes this.
  6. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,068
    Engine wear would not change anything to the amount of contact though. Unlimited practice is a completely different problem where I have a completely other idea about, but that is off-topic.

    "a mix of safety rating is needed". Great that you are saying that, but I brought reasoning to my statement about SR not being effective, this statement has nothing. SR will just get farmed. How S397 is looking into doing this (if I understood correctly), is by giving race penalties (like 30 second time penalties etc) which directly affects your rating. This indirectly acts as a SR, with the advantage of that it can't just be farmed like SR.

    As long as drivers don't get a direct disadvantage from contact they make, they will make contact. If you make contact and you have a big chance of getting realistic damage, drivers would think twice about making contact, since it directly affects their race. by having to pit or continue with a slower car. Proper damage is a natural way of punishment which even works when a race isn't bound to a championship.
     
  7. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    Again this is just a theory that is unlikely to happen with current devs so no need to be so focused on that. Still would be better than a safety rating or any other system on its own. It's simracing after all, the only thing you cant simulate is injury, everything else you can go for it and that's what would make online racing better.
     
  8. Paul McC

    Paul McC Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    757
    Totally! GTR2 is so good in this department!
     
  9. dylbie

    dylbie Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    756
    Great video and you're absolutely right. It's part of the reason I don't race online so much anymore. I get put off by people driving a car unrealistically because of physics exploits or a lack of damage realism. Try banging down 6 gears like a modern F1 car in 1960s F1 car and see how long your gearbox and clutch last. Try hitting that big kerb on every corner of every lap and see how long your tyres and suspension last.

    Part of the appeal of rF2 to me at the beginning was being precise and staying on the racing line, and tyre temp/life management. This actually improved my real world driving. I was hoping for further advancements in realism such as clutch/gearbox damage, or suspension damage for careless driving etc. But there's been nothing new for years.

    Oh wait, we'll soon have proper simulated crepuscular rays. I'm so grateful for this as it's really going to improve my real world driving when I'm driving into the sun at dusk or dawn. Maybe we could have a simulated solar eclipse soon. That'll really sharpen up my skills.
     
  10. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    1,217
    In the chassis.ini, there's a setting for each member called 'breakabillity'. Though it's not in use.

    It would be so good if they could implement suspension damage slamming over curbs and bottoming out in general.

    The suspension members already have stress calculations for both force transmission and flexing forces. It doesn't seem like much needs to be changed to allow it to happen.
     
    dylbie and Emery like this.
  11. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,068
    https://clips.twitch.tv/ShortTrustworthyOctopusVoteNay

    Just another example of a should be race ending crash, but instead was fixed in the pits with only 210 seconds of repairing. After this I managed to hit quite a few walls, and still nothing broke. This should've been so race ending, yet it wasn't even close.
     
    Raven_ARG and Elcid43 like this.
  12. Elcid43

    Elcid43 Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2020
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    150
    Totally agree, when I can crash an open wheel car at anything over pit speed and continue the race it bugs me. I want the car to fall to pieces.

    Side note, speaking of damage, thank goodness Romain was ok. So many things went in his favor, it was a miracle. My nickname for him is now "Terminator" after seeing him come out of that fire. Simply unbelievable.
     
  13. FORMULAEFAN71

    FORMULAEFAN71 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2019
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    43
    lmaooo. For real though, pretty sure the only way not to be able to continue a race is if all of the drive wheels get knocked off. Even the f1 game does a better job of simulating this, and although not the most accurate/consistent, a very detailed front wing damage model with many bits an pieces.
    Would love to see a crash like this be race ending. In rf2 wouldve just been a little spin for heidfeld and nothing else.
     
    Elcid43 likes this.
  14. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,345
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    Whatever the game supports there are always levels within it, depending on the target user. For years in an F1 league we had near real-level damage, where anything more than the slightest contact would knock the front wing off, a heavier hit would fairly likely take a wheel off (which wasn't replaceable), and a bigger crash would kill the engine. It led to some disappointing outcomes for some drivers (and another 2 week wait to try and not do the same next race) but it also cleaned up the driving standards.

    On the other hand, back in F1GP in 1992 the detailed crash effects were a few polygons flying off a collision like cheap fireworks and simply left the front or rear wing "bent", but if you went into a turn 1 melee you saw those bits flying around which helped convey the energy and mayhem. In rFactor you just get a chorused crash sound.

    So much of this game is so sim, but so much isn't.
     
    Remco Majoor and Elcid43 like this.

Share This Page