Sound improvements

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by davehenrie, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I won't mention the other title, I won't mention the site, but another sim project is undergoing what they claim to be a large sound improvement. Hopefully S397 is investigating a similar upgrade at some point.
     
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  2. leseb64

    leseb64 Registered

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    it would be time to work seriously on the sounds!!
     
  3. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    Regardless of sound quality, it is way past time to have actual surround sound. This is the only sim title to ignore that advancement for the past 5 years.
     
  4. leseb64

    leseb64 Registered

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    surround or not a bad sound remains a bad sound, the priority is to make good internal, external and environmental sound recording not only engine and know how to export it without loss!
     
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  5. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    One thing that's missing and existed in rF1 was the "cheering" of the crowd in certain stands. When you got closer you hear it more loud and in the last laps they cheered at the front pack more noisy! Not all tracks had that but i remember hearing it in some tracks. That's one missing thing in the sound department...
     
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  6. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Oh sure! They cheered for you...but not me! :)
     
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  7. muz_j

    muz_j Registered

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    I am just curious (and I'm not a sound expert at all).

    1) Why not just mention the other game, or at least provide a hint ?
    You have already mentioned you'd like to see the sounds improved. It's constructive criticism, which is positive. Why not just tell us the name of the example you are thinking about.

    2) I haven't put much effort into looking into this, but have you looked at this mod?
    https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/dodds-rf2-audio-config-tweaks-improvements.28744/

    3) What is your issue with the sound - my guess from the general comment, would be sampling rates, compression and overall quality ?

    4) What sort of hardware are you using for sound ?
    5) The reason I ask you about your hardware, is I'm curious if you've looked at software and hardware based enhancement. It would depend on your existing setup (and obviously wouldn't address the quality of the source files), but you can radically alter the sound using sound card / sound chip (i.e. built into motherboards) features, things like external mixers, surround sound headphones (I have owned a couple of proper 5.1 headphones in the past with 6 separate channels). It really depends on what you are trying to address.
    The amplifier in my speakers for example supports a software based remix of stereo to surround etc. Creative sound cards support similar, as do other products.

    6) Lastly I'm wondering out aloud if you could make a modification for rFactor 2 that replaced its existing core sounds. There are sounds for add-in mods, but the core game sounds are separate. I don't know much about modding of the game, as i've spent zero time on it, but a lot of games that support modification (the Elder Scrolls games and Arma 3 as easy examples) allow core game files to be replaced. If rFactor 2 supports that, then perhaps a modification could be made to replace low quality stuff.

    I'm not even sure what the quality of the original sounds in the game are to be honest. I don't really think they're good or bad, but it would be interesting to hear what you think should be improved.
     
  8. t0p5ecret

    t0p5ecret Registered

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    Localised ambient is 100% doable, go drive the new GEM Kyalami and you hear music as you pass The Crocodiles each lap.
     
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  9. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I didn't mention the other title, because I didn't want this to become a pissin' match over which sim sounds better. Just used the other title as honey to attract S397's attention. Seems like if other teams are investing in sound... S397 hopefully will consider that as well.
    Onboard sound via Steelseries Arctis 5 headset. Long ago I was a firm believer in Creative sound cards, but the special effects promised just sounded like extra reverb so eventually I quit using soundcards. The sound app says I have both realtek and AMD sound programs. One may be just drivers...
    My issue with sound is largeness. Space...and more sounds. We have these Gibson(Zytek) engines in the Orecas and they should be popping like a batch of popcorn when downshifting for corners. I remember older titles that had a car with a large V8 and I would have to turn down my volume cuz my wife upstairs was yelling at me. I don't get that anymore...and I don't mean loud, but booming...more bass and rumble. Too many of the other cars sound similar, and then some like the Nissan GTR 500 sound...like a hive of honey bees. I have been following Dodds improvements, especially on one of the 80's F1 mods. When the EnduroRacers mod came out, the best over-all engine sounds came from the open cockpit LMP2 cars with Nissan engine files. I guess I want more, without knowing exactly what MORE is!
     
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  10. muz_j

    muz_j Registered

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    Yeah I hear you and I tend to agree.
    I don't think you're talking about anything that can be improved, without addressing the source sound files and possibly some of the audio components in the game engine.
    I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Some cars in the game don't sound perhaps as good as you would expect.
    Having more audio variety would be nice too.
    It's not something I've really spent much time thinking about, so I'm going to avoid making any specific comments, but I have had a couple of people try other racing sims on my PC and at least a couple of times, the sound details (things like turbo whistles, vibrations, wind noises and all sorts of small things) have been commented on and when they have, I've realised it's all stuff I appreciate, but I don't really think about consciously.
    I haven't tried that audio mod I linked to yet, but I've downloaded it and it sounds good, but I guess there's only on way to find out.
    I can relate to what you're saying with "p1ssing matches" too. I've recently had a couple of really good examples of people getting clearly annoyed by my comments on other forums, when I've tried to objectively offer what I thought was useful information.
    It's a shame some people can't handle having a normal conversation and agreeing to disagree, without getting upset - so I understand that angle too.

    In a nutshell, I think you're correct, but given my understanding of how the sounds really work in r Factor 2 is limited, I'm not sure how you could go about addressing it (not you specifically - I'm meaning in general).
    I think I need to get my head around how the sound system works properly, before make any more comments on it.
    Thanks though for clarifying it.
    At the very least, the S397 developers will understand your original comments in a bit more detail.
     
  11. muz_j

    muz_j Registered

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    I'm going to upload a couple of short videos on Youtube with links for a comparative test between the Dodd's RF2 sound settings (from the Player.json file edits) and the stock ones that I had.
    I noted in this old thread (https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/rf2-audio-overhaul-1-3-final.64106/) a couple of people were asking for comparative videos, but I'm not aware of any and it's pretty quick and easy for me to do a couple.

    I've already had a quick spin the ASR Ferrari F2004, as that was the last car I drove and it does sound like an improvement in terms of the mixing.
    After checking the configuration files, I have noticed two settings though, that in my opinion (for my PC at least) were set to values that were worse than what I had previously, but they're minor corrections, which I'm just going to revert to my old values and leave the rest.

    Those two settings are:
    "Buffer Count":24,
    "Buffer Count#":"Controls size of mixing buffer, small values reduce latency but can cause skipping; latency = 1ms * value, which doesn't include driver\/card\/OS latencies (which are humongous on Windows)!",
    "Maximum Effects":48,
    "Maximum Effects#":"Maximum sound effects playing simultaneously",

    Both of those can be effected by your sound hardware and on my system, I was using these values instead, which I'm sticking with:
    "Buffer Count":25,
    "Maximum Effects":64,

    Buffer count I might test both values, but maximum effects will be left at 64 on my computer.
    I am aware of the file comments related to buffer size and its effect on latency, however I would not necessarily take that at face value, given the date of release of rFactor 2 (2013), versus the date of release of Windows 10 (2015).

    Specifically we have this info from microsoft:
    "Before Windows 10, the latency of the Audio Engine was equal to ~12ms for applications that use floating point data and ~6ms for applications that use integer data. In Windows 10, the latency has been reduced to 1.3ms for all applications. The Audio Engine writes the processed data to a buffer."
    source: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/audio/low-latency-audio#:~:text=Before Windows 10, the latency,processed data to a buffer.

    I'm not quite sure where the rationale for the comments around higher buffer counts equating to latency increases come from, as typically larger memory buffers result in performance improvements, as a result of ensuring the data being buffered is not interrupted (network card buffers are an excellent example of this, or processor caches on CPU dies), but I'm not a sound expert, so perhaps my thinking is wrong here.

    I should have a couple of videos from the cockpit view of the F2004 and Studio 397 McLaren Senna in about 30 minutes.
    I already have other cockpit videos of both cars using the previous settings, so the only other variable in the mix will be any audio compression applied by youtube. I would expect youtube's audio compression to degrade the quality of the audio, but in theory it shouldn't effect the mixing.

    I'll throw a couple of before and after links below and I'm actually curious myself to how much of a difference the mixing changes make.

    Links to comparison videos.
    Dodd's RF2 Audio Config v1.5 test 1 - S397 McLaren Senna


    Original pre Dodd's RF2 audio:




    Dodd's RF2 Audio Config v1.5 test 2 - ASR F2004


    Original pre Dodd's RF2 audio:



    There does seem to be a difference between the two, but to me, on my hardware, it's pretty subtle. I think I need to listen to it more and probably listen to a couple of videos that aren't on youtube, to remove that variable from the comparison. At the moment I don't think I'd say either is objectively better than the other, but there does seem to be a difference with the mixing of certain volume levels and comparing the sound section of the player.json file before and after shows the differences. I'll leave it using the new values and see what I think over time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  12. leseb64

    leseb64 Registered

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    I tried modifying the sound files but it doesn't bring anything good to my ears, only S397 is able to radically change the deal for the sounds!
    I'm a music lover and therefore a lot of material for different styles, headphones or speakers I make a short list of what I use most often for games (not music)

    Headphone: AKG 701, Focal spirit, Hifiman HE4XX, logitech G533
    DAC: Micromega My dac, smsl sanskrit, AUDIOPHONICS U-Sabre
    speaker: M-Audio AV-40 cabasse dinghy, Tannoy Mercury
    ampli: sansui, marantz technics
    so material question I think I'm not too bad :)

    having good equipment improves a little the sound but does not make an average sound a good sound!
    the problem is especially in the sound recording and the number of samples restituer, on rf2 there is not much, the engine, sometimes the brakes and seldom more.
    I know that S397 has a lot of things to do and has done a lot of things since the cover but the sound is as important as the graphics!
    I don't know how it's going and I'd like to know, how do they make the sound recordings? they've got nice licenses and we can compare with other titles on the same models.
    we have seen how iracing and ACC get the sounds with several microphones ideally placed inside and outside of the car to have a maximum of samples, when is it for rF2?
    and the sample processing must be the most important, I'm not a sound engineer so my capabilities are limited but I guess they must have a limited number of samples to mix together and be homogeneous.
    hat is the sound part of the rf2 engine that is limited?
    sounds of suspension, transmission, backfires, brakes, road, gravel etc...can we get everything clearly?
    I hope that S397 will give more time and love to the sounds and maybe explain us how they proceed or will proceed to improve this section!
     
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  13. Shadak

    Shadak Registered

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    To be perfectly honest, I dont think the sound is that bad. On a Marantz amp and decent speakers I actually like the sound of official cars (and some mods sound amazing!). Some are a bit muted but I think they're like that IRL, BMW for example, but RSR for is quite good and GTE Corvette as well. I would like some more pronounced effects like small rocks/marbles sounds under the cars or clear backfires etc. , not going to lie :)
     
  14. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Lol, of course if you have a high-end Hi-Fi i'm sure the sound is great! But remember that a good Hi-Fi costs more than a PC, wheel and rig :D
     
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  15. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    Only if you buy new. There are lots of good used bargains out there, at least there are here in the USA! I'm using a 15-yr-old Yamaha 6.1 AV Receiver purchased used for $100 (or less) and big-ass speakers from the '80s.

    Here's a quick example:

    Capture.PNG
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
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  16. muz_j

    muz_j Registered

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    Awesome - I bet your neighbours love you :)
    Are you living in a house separate from your neighbours or really close / joined to other homes ?
    A couple of houses ago, when I lived in Wellington in a block of 4 flats joined together in a row (basically 4 double storey terraced style houses in a row), one Saturday morning I was doing something in my lounge, with everything turned off and I randomly overheard a conversation between two ladies who lived next door to me, with one lady saying to the other - "...and the noises just go on and on and on for hours, it drives me bl$^dy nuts, blah blah blah blah...." and for a second I thought "what is that lady talking about ?", before quickly realising, oh, she's obviously talking about my racing simulator games being played and the fact that occasionally the volume would creep up to a level where she was hearing it pretty clearly. Whoops.
    I never did get around to apologising to her for it, but it is what is is and she was generally right, although I'm pretty reasonable with it and don't play games loud in the early hours of the morning etc. The problem with houses joined together though is the frequency of the noises being put out is quite annoying and easily travels through a wall.

    It is really fun though to play it loud, as it helps suck you into the experience that bit more.
    ...I took one look at your comments about your amp and speakers and it instantly reminded me of that lady :)
     
  17. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    I have three neighboring homes... my house is in the circle, on 4+ acres.
    Thimbleberry Woods A.jpg
     
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  18. muz_j

    muz_j Registered

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    That looks like a really nice place to live!
    Very scenic and with no neighbours for "miles", you can pretty much do what you want :)
     
  19. Xzanman

    Xzanman Registered

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    one feature that would be very welcome is a master volume..
    The sound mix really does need some love,perhaps s397 could invest in fmod,but that would probably lead to broken mods....
     
  20. Beef36

    Beef36 Registered

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    I sometimes listen to podcasts, hence I want to reduce the game's overall master volume without reducing the PC's sound volume.

    Is there an easy way to change rF2's master volume, either via the in-game menu or by modifying a file(s), so I can switch between low and full game master sound volume easily, without changing all the in-game sound sliders?
     

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