[REL] SMMG Formula 3 Series (2019-2020-2021-2022-2023-2024) 2.20

Discussion in 'Vehicles' started by Slow Motion, Nov 22, 2018.

  1. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    The pressure? :D
     
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  2. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    Modders still have the tools to create their own tires. Nothing prevents them from doing so.
     
  3. zxd1997

    zxd1997 Registered

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    Sorry I mean that, we need some new tyre model of the newest one that can use to be a reference or the newest tech of tyre model.
    So if there aren't any update between 2018 one to 2020 one, just forgive me about that words....
     
  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    As far as I know the examples are fully up to current specs - the ones I've looked at incorporate the QSA improvements that were the last major development talked about, so unless there's something unannounced they should be fine.

    There is some current talk about tyres, specifically spring rates (though I think people are jumping the gun a bit considering that a more widespread problem), but that's been part of the model since the start.
     
  5. svictor

    svictor Registered

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    It's not fully updated, almost half or more samples are from 2017(those file names even uses 2017), which doesn't include some of the new features such as:
    DryTerrainEffect,WetTerrainEffect,GrassTerrainEffect,DirtTerrainEffect,GravelTerrainEffect,RumbleTerrainEffect,SpecialTerrainEffect,GaugePressureExtrapolationRange,CarcassTemperatureExtrapolationRange,RotationSquaredExtrapolationRange
    Which also described here. And of course, those parameters can be copied from a few 2018 samples, but there are definitely more changes in 397's newest GTE/GT3 tyres, their sliding grip/heating speed and many other behaviors are quite different from the 2017/2018 examples.

    That's the problem, there is barely any expert in RF2 community can do this on their own, even if someone has the knowledge, he probably doesn't have the real data, and even if he had all those, it takes so long to do the compiling and testing and average user's CPU probably can't handle it anyway. That's why so many modders quit RF2, tyre modding is a huge barrier to them. Last time I checked and compared some of the popular mod's TGM file with 397 samples, and a lot of them have identical data in most areas, especially their lookup table shows no changes at all, which indicated that tyre weren't re-compiled.
    Here is a qoute from TireTool Quickstart v3.0, a guide made in 2013, just shows how hard it is:
     
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  6. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I may have got lucky with the TGM I opened at random to check (I haven't got the time right now to do a full tally), but the '2017' labelled file I've got in front of me has all those parameters, too. You're right though, I did forget about those parameters and the off-road blog post.

    Actually I've just opened the '2013' soft slicks and they also have the QSA and terrain parameters; did you actually open up all the tyres to arrive at your 'more than half' or are you going by the dates?

    And I apologise but I don't take your word on "definitely more changes". I accept it's possible you've done enough tests to prove no combination of current parameters can give the same behaviour you're seeing in S397's newest tyres, but my starting position on such claims is generally one of incredulity.
     
  7. svictor

    svictor Registered

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    Thanks, I guess I have to wasted a bit time, but here you are:
    D_200-580-R15X8_CM004_SLICK_2017.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    D_200-580-R15X8_CM004_WET_2017.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    D_245-650-R18X10_C98D_HARD_2013.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    D_245-650-R18X10_C98D_MED_2013.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    D_245-650-R18X10_C98D_SOFT_2013.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    D_245-650-R18X10_C98D_WET_2013.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    D_265-605-R16X10.5_CM004_SLICK_2017.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    D_265-605-R16X10.5_CM004_WET_2017.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    M_20-61-17X8_S9C_SLICK_2010.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    M_27-65-18X10.5_P2M_RAIN_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_27-65-18X10.5_S7M_SLICK_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_27-65-18X10.5_S8M_SLICK_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_27-65-18X10.5_S9M_SLICK_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_30-65-18X11.5_P2M_RAIN_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_30-65-18X11.5_S7M_SLICK_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_30-65-18X11.5_S8M_SLICK_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_30-65-18X11.5_S9M_SLICK_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_30-65-18X12.5_P2M_RAIN_2017.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    M_30-65-18X12.5_S7M_SLICK_2018.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    M_30-65-18X12.5_S8M_SLICK_2018.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    M_30-65-18X12.5_S9M_SLICK_2018.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    M_30-68-18X12.5_RAIN_P2M_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_30-68-18X12.5_SLICK_S7M_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_30-68-18X12.5_SLICK_S8M_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_30-68-18X12.5_SLICK_S9M_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_31-71-18X13_RAIN_P2M_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_31-71-18X13_SLICK_S7M_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_31-71-18X13_SLICK_S8M_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    M_31-71-18X13_SLICK_S9M_2017.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    P_200-540-13X8_DM_SLICK_2018.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    P_250-575-13X10_DM_SLICK_2018.TGM - has TerrainEffect
    P_305-670-13X13.7_SLICK_S_2018.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect
    P_405-670-13X16.9_SLICK_S_2018.TGM - doesn't have TerrainEffect

    Total of 18 samples don't have TerrainEffect, 15 samples have TerrainEffect. So it is more than half.
    (all tyre samples downloaded from here: https://docs.studio-397.com/developers-guide/cars/car-physics/tyre-database)
    Though I know almost nothing about making tyres, I have tried quite a bit test with different parameters to emulate the behavior of 397's new GT3/GTE tyres, can only get a little closer, but the grip behavior, especially while sliding, is just not close at all, not to mention the heating issue (same complain can be found in apex's 2012 GT3 thread and a few other tyre thread where some modders were also trying to emulate 397's new tyres).
     
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  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I don't see it as a waste of time, and I would have done it if you didn't out of curiosity - just wasn't inclined to do it at 10 mins to midnight. I would have taken the lazier option of just a tally though, so good work on that.

    Indeed more than half, though not related to year evidently.

    I'm wary of user test results as approaches tend to be unscientific and tyres can have limited telemetry data with DLC. People are prone to confirmation bias and see issues where there are none. But I'll review those threads for my own interest. Might also be worth asking a dev for clarification.
     
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  9. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @svictor

    For further info, regarding the 33 database tyres (I haven't gone to the trouble of separating the various tyre groups):
    • all 33 have the updated QSA parameter, suggesting they are built using the 'current' pressure distribution modelling
    • as you said, 15 have the terrain effect parameters
    • 15 contain GaugePressureExtrapolationRange and the other 2 parameters related to Build 1110 extrapolation changes*
    • 33 have InternalGasMolarMass, described in the same off-road blog.
    *https://www.studio-397.com/2018/05/realtime-tyre-analysis-improvements-build-1110/ (I think this is pretty in-depth for the average modder, perhaps best left alone without some good reference material)


    I skipped over part of your earlier post, I'd like to respond to it:

    A 10 year old CPU can 'handle it', it just takes longer. That sort of statement just makes no sense.

    It's true many mods use the database tyres as-is; you can see that as an indicator of the barrier created by the tyre tech to modding, but you could also see that as the tyre database providing useful examples for most mods. rF1-era mod tyres were largely all copied from each other also, and in many cases the 'approximately right' and working values are better than guessed-at and faulty ones. I'd personally be more concerned about some of the other parameters that pop up in mods, in areas much less complex than the tyres, that are obviously fictitious. Interestingly no one driving them seems to notice the difference, and to me that says that splitting hairs regarding the fine details of modding generally but especially tyres is probably wasting time.

    In terms of the post I originally responded to, suggesting that people were prevented from modding by the lack of updated examples, I think we're seeing that that's not the case. But @zxd1997 already acknowledged that itself may not be true, so no harm done.
     
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  10. zxd1997

    zxd1997 Registered

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    ok, me and svictor are friend so we have discussed some tyres and yes noticed some reference tyres can't be tuned to the handling like newest dlc tyres and some little params are missing. But all that we said just mean that we hope 397 provide more new tech of tyre or some, in my point (not svictor), it still is: if 397 have some new tech on tyres, i hope they can share some reference or example for us to learn or use, but if not any new tech from 2019 until now, it's not necessary.(but that may means 397 haven't touch and improve the core physic for a long time....) and yes I agree with you with reference now they provide we can modding, too. But who don't want to use the newest tech to have a better feeling of a car?
    Thanks for both of you 'waste time' to do so let me confirm some point. And maybe just I'm not describe my words correct enough to cause some conflict.
     
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  11. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @zxd1997 don't worry, I think questions are always good. It is easy to speculate on unknowns though, so I've asked the question to S397. When I get a response I will report.
     
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  12. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @svictor @zxd1997 Marrs has confirmed there is no new tech they're using that isn't already publicly available and in ttool.
     
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  13. zxd1997

    zxd1997 Registered

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    ok, thanks for comfirmaion. that must be 'secret data' or tuning that led to a different feeling with official cars.....
     
  14. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    He might mean why S397 still haven't made available GT3/Endurance cars tires in the reference database.
     
  15. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    WIP... just a screenshot the day before IRL Formula 3 starts 3 days of tests at Bahrain international Circuit...

    20200229184042_1.jpg
     
  16. muzikant

    muzikant Registered

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    where I can find the DRS button in the new UI

    THX
     
  17. muzikant

    muzikant Registered

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    SOLVED
     
  18. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    First painting tests of several 3d meshes on Campos cars...
    20200315173001_2.jpg 20200315172952_1.jpg
     
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  19. Slow Motion

    Slow Motion Registered

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    Thanks to the hard work of Gilles, we think to be ready for painting liveries with an almost final template by the end of the week and helmets, gloves and suits could be painted as well.
    BUT currently our mate @Brack Jabham is very very busy, so I'm alone in painting and any help would be very appreciated, mainly for helmets, suits and gloves of each driver of this season.
    We don't know if real driver will ever start the 2020 season due to the worldwide infection, but a virtual championship would be possible.

    In case you can pm me! Thank you
     
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  20. Brack Jabham

    Brack Jabham Registered

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    In saying that - I just finished with my volunteer stuff this weekend, so I am back on board and will start painting for the teams I agreed and can take on more once I finish those
     

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