Honesty speaking rF2 seems a lost cause

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by williang83, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    1,320
    Likes Received:
    3,121
    Why should it die in gods name? It's a game, there for everyone who wants to use it. Why are people making such a big drama is beyond me. People still play RBR, GP4 or GPL. A game that has something going for it will never get old. And I guess we will know in ten years how good the sim really was. I still don't find the same fidelity elsewhere, it's quite simple. ACC has closed the gap a bit, but it isn't the sandbox that I am looking for. And I like big sandbox games. :p
     
  2. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    296
    Try a real sandbox then. Nothing will come close to the realism you will get there. Have fun & enjoy. Just wash your hands afterwards because bacteria/fungi within sandboxes are nasty ones.
     
  3. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    390
    Like I said it's all about magic numbers written in lockup tables what makes it much more easy than with a physical based tyre modell.
    And the loss of time with less air pressure is not small and yet wrong, which was confirmed by a race mechanic of the Blanc Pain. They always try to get as far down as possible without to much risk. Lower pressure means a bigger contact patch using slick tyres.
    Also in the DTM they drove under 14.50 psi at times because you were faster, but then this was forbidden and also in Formula 1 they tried to drive with as little air pressure as possible Even after new regulations, the teams still tricked by heating up the rims and air to pretend to have a higher minimum pressure during the control measurement
    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...-controversy-a-load-of-hot-air-798784/798784/
    That there is no damage in Rf2, but only the temperature and thus the thermal degradation at low air pressure plays a role is a pity, but due to the physical model.
    One could implement a few can effects like Kunos did, because their blistering and graining are only rudimentary sampled effects depending on slip, temperature and duration, which is much more complex in reality, because it only occurs under very specific conditions that nobody can really predict.
    So every tire model has its weaknesses, the one from ACC has many functions, but they are rather rudimentary and in some aspects not very real, but yes we need more features in rFactor2 like hydroplaning, tyre affecting track temperature, tyre damage and i think we will have to wait more that 2 year if it comes at all. Thats sad but thats live :D
     
    R.Noctua and CrimsonEminence like this.
  4. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    My hope was that current physics was some kind of placeholder till Borda build them properly but I guess it isnt the case.
    Like I said in Discord once, if they release the comp system as things are now (bugs, art and physics state) they'll just be signing a "We dont know what the heck we are doing" statement.
     
    GoldenBear, dylbie, R.Noctua and 2 others like this.
  5. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    1,216
    Still think reiza have done more for Rf1 ams and ams2 then s397 has for Rf2. Bar a graphics engine and a meh ui.

    They did get some awesome licenses though and I'm proud of them for that But the quality of them I'm not so sure meets reiza polish and quality assurance.
     
  6. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,926
    Likes Received:
    3,876
    S397 and Reiza has worked together.
     
  7. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    Saying that you enjoy it more would make sense, to say Reiza still did more (especially when S397 was hired to make big part of the work)... I wont waste my time anymore hehe, this is a lost cause just as much as rF2 lol, well rF2 has more chances I guess :D
     
    Russell lowe and LokiD like this.
  8. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    1,216
    I think ams is more of an enjoyable sim due to polish and finish yes.
     
  9. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    637
    Likes Received:
    701
    Not S397 but Marss as part of Luminis take care to help them with Steam integration and similar stuff, no physics or gameplay, that was all there thanks to Reiza, if you enjoyed AMS racing experience wasn't for Luminis...

    yeah and Reiza content is way better than S397 one, thanks to them there is a working turbo and so on...

    Fun fact, Reiza moved to Madness engine due the current state of rF2 "modding" platform and the "not so open" exchange of informations in order to work on it...
    Reiza team isn't just a modder team, they are like all the other Dev teams licensing an engine and working on it (like licensing UE4 for Kunos)...if they moved to Madness (even if they already know people will compare their next title to PC2) means something wasn't working as expected in the rF2 "state of the art physics model and modding platform".

    To be honest S397 missed a great opportunity, Reiza working with their engine and joining forces togheter to develop and improve it even more was a great way to have ton of content and features in short time...in the other hand I wouldn't say Reiza missed something, they just gained an eye candy engine and a good physics engine (surprisingly good on proper hands).

    Loving rF2 doesn't mean be blind and don't point to flaws, if you like something you start to be vocal hoping for improvements...so rants are ok, as dev I would be worried of users silence instead, this usually means people stopped taking care of it...
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
    CrimsonEminence likes this.
  10. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    there is always a triggered one
    that last part, senseless in this thread really, there is only ppl pointing flaws, wtf :D oh well nvm
    the tire posts were interesting and worth it at least, not like this thread will change anything anyway
     
  11. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    637
    Likes Received:
    701
    Not referring to you and not triggered at all.
    Just a general reply to some here bringing the "tyre model" as example of perfection (while it isn't) as it alone could save the title for years...
    I would call rF2 the "tyre simulator" then, since the racing experience needs some magic "to work" in order to be perceived and enjoyed...
     
  12. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    Every post is talking problems and some are mentioning quality at the same time.
    And btw no, S397 (Luminis back then) didnt only do the Steam part, watch the devcon video.
     
    The Iron Wolf likes this.
  13. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,118
    Likes Received:
    540
    @Ronnie when writing a wall of text a TL;DR would be helpful
     
  14. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,118
    Likes Received:
    540
    I had the opportunity to talk to the chief architect of professional flight simulators in my country and (in that state) trying to build up professional driving simulators. He said that tyre simulation is one of the most complex problems he ever had to face. So maybe your "ironic" post is more true than you think it is.
     
  15. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    637
    Likes Received:
    701
    well my not ironic point is that a good tyre simulation alone doesn't make the SIM appealing/fun/exciting or whatever if it is missing the racing part...
    I dont care if ACC tyre model isn't so detailed as rF2 one...I will play it because at the end of day, while taking a moment for myself behind my plastic toy wheel I just want to have fun and enjoy the thrilling of racing other guys in a user friendly and quite realistic behaving RACING sim...
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
    Will Mazeo and The Iron Wolf like this.
  16. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,926
    Likes Received:
    3,876
    I guess his point was that only good physics is not enough. And that is absolutely true. The success of several other simualtions (some of which I personally don't even count as simulations) proves that physics isn't the dominant factor for most. Physics is dominant factor for me, but I can not lie that it is frustrating that everything else is not very good, and even physics still has left some stuff to wish for.
     
  17. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,118
    Likes Received:
    540
    I agree, while physics is the dominant factor for me too, I know i am more the exception. Lets wait a bit more what S397 will bring us for Online Racing. For sure one of the most important parts of future rF2. I hope we will get some news in upcoming Roadmap. Today at prime time (isn't it?)

    EDIT: BTW, i am not only seeking for fun, i am seeking for realistic simulations. If i only want fun i take my old Tric-O-Tronic game i got when i was a child. Was only €10, for fun a great price-performance ratio.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  18. FAlonso

    FAlonso Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2013
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    96
    Physics is the main part of a simulator, but physics is something not measurable, we all talk about physics but we don't know how it works in each simulator, all simulators use different formulas to try to represent reality. The complexity of the formula does not mean a better result, complexity can bring more errors. By this I mean that each person has different visions of physics, each of us has chosen a simulator because we feel it more realistic. Personally I feel comfortable with rF2, AMS, LFS, AC and ACC, but it is the set of features that makes me opt for one or another simulator. I hope s397 works hard to make the feature set as good as the physics section.
     
    avenger82, The Iron Wolf and Ronnie like this.
  19. Russell lowe

    Russell lowe Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2020
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    8
    If it's a physical based tyre/physics model, then they should all be using the same formulas, facts don't differ like opinion.
    The difference really, is how in depth each game goes regarding these aspects
     
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,346
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    What does this mean? It reads like Reiza introduced a working turbo into rF2, but that's certainly not true.

    Sorry, I have to call this out just as CrimsonEminence earlier called out the claims of people saying the model 'sucks'. No one is calling rF2's physical modelling perfect, let alone its overall implementation. Those two are often confused; if I talk about the model approach and how detailed it is people tend to reply with "but track temperature doesn't vary!" or "low pressure doesn't do anything!"* , which are at least partially true and among quite a few features currently lacking, but which don't take away from the underlying methodology.

    *low pressure does influence contact patch pressure distribution in rF2. Physical damage as a consequence of low pressure isn't there, but would be extremely difficult to model in detail (the damage itself, and the severity of in-game impacts that might lead to it) and it would be difficult to craft a canned version of it that would keep everyone happy. I think this is underestimated by users.


    The rF2 tyre model strength - and weakness - is the requirement to build a proper tyre physically. That's not a job of an hour, you can't start with a base version and give it a few tweaks after some test runs and you're good to go. But, when you do build a proper tyre, the compilation process combined with the game gives you realistic* physical behaviour across an extremely wide range of scenarios with very fine steps across that range. A tyre model built on a number of slip tables, or a single base formula like Pacejka, can't give you those fine graduations and are even more susceptible to dodgy data than the rF2 model is. (remember the QSA fix? 5 years into the game the devs get some tyre data that contradicts what all their previous data suggested, and leads to an improvement in the model. Anyone building tyres with slip curves dependent on that same manufacturer-supplied data has the same flaw)

    *realistic is a comparitive term here; arbitrary slip curves can make a tyre do silly things, they're purely data driven. A solid rF2 tyre won't suddenly go weird at specific angles/loads as it's not relying on interpolation or extrapolation of user-defined values.

    Modders have trouble with rF2's tyres precisely because you can't change a figure here and there and test it. The problem with that method is that it's extremely subjective, though to be fair so many people judge sims based on how they feel (and generally very soon after trying them) that maybe it's a good enough approach. Some fairly popular rF2 mods are questionable when you look into the underlying physics, and yet people who play rF2 for its physics (because, really, there's not a whole lot else to play it for) like the mods regardless. Perhaps says something about diminishing returns.

    Still, there's no doubting that even if rF2's tyre model has the most potential of those currently out there (again, ignoring the many omissions, but focusing on the core physical base) it's also very possible to do it badly. That's not unique among tyre models, we had plenty of poor mods in rF1, but simpler models are easier to do copy-paste 'modding' with. Yet having said even that, the tyre database that's been available for quite a while now has tyres to suit most applications with decent results.

    Anyway, if you'll avoid misrepresenting what people are saying, I can certainly agree: rF2's tyre tech, which is largely unchanged and intact since the first release in 2012 and honestly doesn't really need to change, doesn't excuse the lack of other physical effects (tyres and otherwise) and especially gameplay elements that we've been waiting for the whole time. I don't think that lack is of critical importance right at this moment (and therefore endangers rF2's existence more than it did in 2014), but as other sims close that physics gap people will tend to spend more time with them instead, which isn't exactly helping.
     

Share This Page