rfactor 2 Still The King.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by vegaguy5555, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Registered

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    Yes, sorry, that is what I meant to write, lowest pressure. In any case, I was expressing my surprise because the people who praise RF2 seem so impress by its physic and such simplistic exploit seem not aligned with what is often cited as being RF2 tour de force.
    I am into immersion first and drive mostly on my own or against AI, to me, immersion is convincing by many aspect of a SIM.
    Believable physic is important, to me many sim have good enough physic and they all have strong and weak points. AI, graphc and sound are also very important. There is no immersion for me anymore without VR, so cockpit visual aspect and proper driver animation also helps me in the total immersive SIM experience.
    I have to admit that even though I appreciate RF2 and spend time driving it, it is lacking in to many aspect to ever be my favourite. It is though, I think, a must in a SIM racer library and since it is still developed by the new team, I always keep an eye on what is happening here.
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Need to keep this in context. (and despite doing so, I'm not denying rF2 still has a lot of things missing, some of which I've been vocal about myself in the past)

    Generally speaking the tyre temperature range available in the car setup is a reflection of some sort of real life rules, or a realistic range of useable pressures. You won't normally be able to run the tyres at 30kPa, for example. So when you run minimum pressures, it's usually realistically low pressures. (side-note test for later: take a decent open mod and run the pressures super-low, see what it does to physics)

    In real life, lower pressures gives more raw grip as you're increasing the size of the contact patch and that gives more grip, because it's rubber. (solid or non-flexing materials don't work this way; the increase in contact patch is offset by a lower average contact pressure, and they're relying on simple friction, so grip doesn't change [basically]). The most obvious downside in real life is integrity - rubber in an underinflated tyre will flex more, creating excessive heat and degradation and eventual failure. rF2 doesn't do this, nor does a severely underinflated tyre pop off the rim.

    A lot of the real-life rules (in series like F1) around minimum pressures are written with tyre integrity in mind. Teams then run generally at that minimum pressure, and even try various tricks to end up on the track with effectively lower pressures, as that gives the most grip.

    So, I'd be hesitant to call running low pressures an exploit. The lack of ramifications is certainly a missing feature, but the grip itself isn't a bug.


    Secondly, and this is harder to test and quantify, I'm sure I've seen some people with more recent rF2 tyres (and the newer CPM) say that they notice an improvement in longer runs with higher tyre pressures, compared to minimum. This could be a reflection of better contact patch pressure distribution leading to more even tyre wear and better long-term grip. This is more the sort of thing you'd be targeting if you check wear and rubber temperature after a run, and try to decide if the tyre pressure is right - but probably not in the classic computer game sense, where you get the best grip and raw laptime by finding the optimum pressure for a given tyre and loading.
     
  3. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    Tyres are getting hotter with lower pressures in rFactor2 , noticeable in Motec and we all should know that rFActor2 tyres have a heat history which simulates thermal tyre degradation, so yes higher pressures reduce thermal tyre degradation
     
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  4. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    Yeh this is really noticable in a high downforce car on a straight. If you're going quickly, low pressure tyres will create a lot of heat. Whereas with high pressure tyres, the high downforce load doesn't increase their tempreture nearly as much.

    If you have a weak ffb wheel (one which doesn't really 'fight' back at the grip threshold), it's more likely you're going to be overdriving the car with high tyres pressures, creating more heat and therefore losing any thermal degradation advantage over lower pressure tyres.

    If you're wheel is pushing back the way a real race car does, it's physically difficult to push the front tyres beyond their point of maximum adhedision (beyond which heating is severe) , even with the pressures high. So you will gain a advantage in terms of thermal degradation.

    In short: DD wheel will allow you run higher tyre pressures and gain a tyre wear advantage. If you have anything less than say, a T500, you're going to loose any advantage because you can overdrive the car too easily.
     
  5. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Registered

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    Interesting comment, you might want to watch a video about what forces we get feedback from and how they are felt at the RD forum. It might change your interpretation of what your wheel is telling you.:)
     
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  6. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    Enlighten me..

    Edit: found it here:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCq01LHaIVgt%3D13m52s&t=13m52s

    The point I made still stands as your're still going to have less force with a weaker wheel at the limit of grip, allowing you to over drive the car easier. Also the weaker wheel won't allow the tyres to conform to bumps so well, so the extra energy will heat and wear the tyre more, rather than move the steering wheel.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  7. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    You don't really feel the "limit of grip" in FFB exactly. That is the thing. It's a combination of pneumatic trail, friction, suspension and so on. But when the steering gets light, you have car dependend differences, how much further you can go.
    (I know, this sounds counterproductive, why using FFB in the first place then? Yeah exactly...it's an immersion and learning help, but you have to use way more indicators, to really estimate grip.)

    Bumps are also less effective on a high end wheel, when you touch it, because the FFB "registers" if you touch it and recognizes your degrees of wheel input and renews it output, depending to that, so even there you will get higher degradation through bumps.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
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  8. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    Fair point - I suppose in reality, the feeling through your body tells you the point of maximum lateral g. In the game it's mostly our visual representation of lateral movement.

    Let me remedy my point: Beyond peak self aligning torque is where slipping begins to create heat/wear. If your using a strong wheel, it's physically challenging to turn the car in; In that case it's not so easy to go beyond peak torque and into the heating zone. Where as, with a lower tier wheel you can just force the rotation effortlessly beyond the peak torque and then beyond the effective slip angle. That is why you may find your self destroying tyres without adequate FFB.

    To the second point - I see what your getting at but I'm not sure if I agree because if a high end wheel is providing proper resistance, you're not going to be able to hold the wheel still against the bumps - it will be steering you for a split second. A weaker wheel can simply be held still whilst the tyres slip along a bumpy surface.
     
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  9. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    The point of tyre degrading slip is reached earlier, sometimes even later (car dependend again), than the threshold of lightening in the steering, that's also not an information, you get from the FFB exactly. BUT yes, you will probably have a little help, by adjusting your steering input to tyres life, when FFB tells you "my steering has weight, my tyres have load".

    But this is mostly the case for all FFB wheels. You can drive on this pretty easy with a G27, IF you have your FFB settings right. It is lighter, it is less detailed, but it gets the job done, pretty similar, it works the similar way, software-wise-ish. You have less force, but this then comes down to drivers experience and i will say, most of the people, where it really matters, that are using a more budget wheel, will do it as right, as the people with god tier DD wheels.^^

    The wheel is maybe turning for you "less" on a budget wheel, but that work-procedure of reacting and acting on a bump and surface is something, FFB gots wrong for decades now. The FFB "overrides the front physics a bit". This is the case for a Logitech MOMO, but also the case for a OSW large MiGE wristcracker :D
     
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  10. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    I absoutely agree that people can drive properly and feel what the car is doing with a budget wheel. I have however had some heavy handed friends, who don't play sims, death grip a T300 like they're on a rodeo bull, tyres scorched in 1 lap.
     
  11. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    In this state of driving, you aren't supposed to manage tyres, though :D
     
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  12. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    They would agree, and can confirm alcohol intoxication does not assist in finding peak lateral grip.
     
  13. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    I was trying a similar scenario with a buddy at monday with a corvette on the Nordschleife in AC...it was very interesting :D
     
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  14. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    FFB in a sim really is a magical thing. I don't think we could drive a real car from real FFB even if we were driving a real car remotely from our sim? Since I haven't actually did the experiment I don't know for sure but I'm guessing it would feel more like AC? So sims like rF2 exaggerat the FFB, which some people like.
    I've been doing experiments in PC1 lately. Because of its detailed FFB settings you can really change a lot of physics getting to your wheel. It's quite amazing how I can go from mindlessly sliding through corners to a controlled drift with only changing the FFB in game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  15. Wergilius

    Wergilius Registered

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    Well, that's why FFB is also very subjective, I have both driven, constructed and built the suspension on my race car for many years so consider myself to have some little grip of the basics. IMO it's the opposite, the AC FFB is exaggerated and rF2 more towards real life :D

    upload_2019-10-31_17-53-28.png
     

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  16. franser

    franser Registered

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    Yes, in a racing car when the tires are loaded, the steering is heavy, now when it starts to lose grip, it is relieved that indicates that the tire is losing the ideal contact with the asphalt. If we talk about a front wheel drive and accelerate in the middle of a curve, the drive will close the direction inwards
     
  17. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    I definitely don't get the canned effects in AC, which consequently was the thread I got banned in.:oops:
    My answer to that question was rF2 doesn't need canned effects..... come to think of it, none of the sims need canned effects. It's the spindle weight that is the important part of the FFB, which is something AC is lacking the most. And you can clearly see spindle weight in the steering wheel of any real race car video.
    So I have to agree with Wergilius comment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
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  18. jo_siffert

    jo_siffert Registered

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    If i remember correctly you where banned from the forum because of the constant "weight transfer thing" complaining. The result was that your Antivirus was intercepting?

    Greets
    Jo
     
  19. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    No. I was banned for claiming Stefano suggested asking rF2 if they used canned effects when it was someone else.
    And it is common knowledge that AC has a floaty, light feel in the corners. Every sim has its down side. And I talk about all of them about all the sims. But its funny how it's not bashing rF2 when I noticed there isn't many street cars or there are so many cars that need updating or we haven't got the new UI yet? But talk about work arounds for any of AC's short comings and it's bashing? But it's ok to just mindlessly bash PC1. I'm sorry but it does have the most sophisticated FFB settings. AC has canned effects. Go figure!
    Plus you missed the huge complement I gave AC saying it was more realistic then rF2 a few posts up.

    OK Joe. What's really wrong? If bashing me made you feel better, then go at it. Anything to help a friend.
     
  20. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Can't wait that the new UI and competition system are out, so they can focus on refining the sim in a lot of areas that need a DEEP LOOK!
     
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