Better tire/tyre model on non-grip state. Currently is not realistic and way off ...

I doubt. Or maybe partially due to that(?)
I will think it could be due to a lack of realism on tire friction coefficient curve (mainly thermodynamic part -- 2nd par of WLF) to deal with such extremely high degree of rear "sliding" case -- huge ratio of tire spinning-speed to ground speed with a large slip angle. In his stage 1 and 2, with relative low entry speed but “max RPM” (>7000rpm at 2nd gear), his car sliding in controlled (drifting) – persists in a metastability. The more throttle or higher spinning of tire, the better as he told. I will bet on tyre model rather engine model (but I could be wrong). If result in a lower static friction curve somehow to yield less push force that maybe able to achieve a metastability instead of a "saddle" state now as I believe. thanks for the info.

 

You keep talking about the tyre-model, it's about the tyres which have being CONSTRUCTED - if you seriously want to be able to drift, then create the tyres for it, because drift-tyres are NOT racing tyres. AND it has already been proven that there exist MODs with which you CAN drift, so please stop already

 

Maybe you are doing something wrong on that part where you should quickly go to counter steering (too slow or too late)
I didn't see problem with full throttle drifts (even with long lasting ones where tyres really heat up) if i worked the wheel right.

 

Btw. I think that tyres behavior at high slip angles are one thing that should benefit from how rfactor2 tyre model works, compared to the normal way of modeling tyre out of measurement data got from tyre test bench, because that tyre data usually doesn't contain data for high slip angles.

Wheter rf2 tyres are too slippery when very hot, or wheter they heat too much during drift. That i don't know.
Anyway, drifting feels quite believabe to me, but i have never done it in real life on dry asphalt.

 

Let me understand you correctly on this: Are you saying that you successfully achieved:
Stage 1 (full throttle)
Stage 2 (full throttle), and
Stage 3

with rF2 RWD cars (factory cars, without specifically tune/setup/trick), AND you can repeat this successfully?
If this is true, then the case is close. (keep in mind in Chris Harris stage 2 that the front tires' slip angle is counter-wise/opposite to the rears' slip angle. Make sure you do this right).

 

Personally no, I have not, which is why I understand your point. There are cars in rf2 that can drift with ease (panoz, c6, cobra,nsx), but I would not consider them good drift cars by any stretch, such as the BMW Chris Harris is driving, which is arguably the best factory car for drifting. I struggle to drift the above mentioned cars at wide open throttle, but I assume IRL they would also be a handful at WOT for various reasons. Once I tweak the setup (eg increase turning degrees, toe out) then I find drifting quite easy (MUCH easier than pcars/AC). Wide open throttle can be hard but very possible. When a mod that is suited to drifting is used (eg M5, which uses rf2 tires), then drifting at wide open throttle is easy for someone who knows how to drift. There are many videos on you tube demonstrating this, and if it is in fact true that they are on rf2 tires, then how can you continue to maintain your argument? Drifting is hard in sims, agreed, but drifting being hard due to the tire model? Can't be certain of that. It is definitely very possible to drift with WOT in rf2.

 

Well here's another video I found today, dozens of full throttle opposite lock drifts in rF2.

 

This guy is using a G27 which is pretty impressive, as I know how vague the ffb can sometimes feel. It definitely helps using a larger wheel, I find it gives much more control and feels a lot more realistic. Having a multi-screen setup so you can actually see where you're going can't hurt either. Anyone know what tires this 240z is on?

 

Later to night i will try it again. Stage 1 and 2 was full throttle. I Think that the slip angle for the fronts were like you said. Car was panoz with stock setup.
But i wasn't succesfull at it every time. every now and then i failed.

 

Oh no! Not that again!
Joe do you ever give up?
Your Big letters doesn´t make it more true.
I just hope this thread will be closed soon.

 

I did some driving now. The slip angle of the front tyres was always to the same direction as the rear tyres. It is probably not even possible to have opposite slip angle for fronts because it would throw car to spin to the other direction.
I took a video of replay of me trying to do those harris drifts: www.mediafire.com/file/f7768h719dd9lke/abc.mp4

 

I think you did right. Very nice. Thanks for your effort!

 

Nice video.
Btw. That M5 mod on your other video was great.

 

Thanks Korva. Yeah that M5 is bloody awesome!

 

It's younger brother is available now

 

Nice!

 

A few months ago I was asking here about a certain car behavior which made drifting seem quite difficult (if not impossible especially in racing cars). Basically when the rear of the car steps out, you go to correct with opposite lock, and the application of counter steer makes the car spin out even faster. It's completely counter intuitive, because you'd guess that counter steering would 'catch' the slide, and yet the opposite was happening.

Niels Heusinkveld does a pretty good job of explaining what potentially is happening in this video I've linked (explanation from 30:00 to 33:00). Basically, if you are applying too much steering lock through a corner and the front tyres are past their optimum slip angle, if the rear of the car steps out at that moment, you have a kind of balance with the front of the car lacking grip and the rear of the car lacking grip. If you then do the intuitive thing and counter steer, you'll be reducing the front slip angle, and thus increasing front lateral grip. All of a sudden a situation is created where the rear of the car is lacking lateral grip, but the front of the car is gaining lateral grip. The front tires act as a pivot point and the car spins out faster.

I don't know the scientific validity of this, but it seems logical. I know from real life that if you get sideways while inputting a lot of steering lock, it can lead to a pretty sketchy outcome. If the tyre is at or before the optimum steering lock, slides are much easier to catch.

 

Also if you are having 4 wheel slide, counter steering will increase front grip first making the rear to step out.
Because of this you need to go quickly from fronts sliding to high counter steer angle.

 

Race cars are edgy because of the stiff suspension and aero directional sensitivity, not tires. Warmed race tires are extremely tacky.

Do you suppose this is a perfect setup in perfect conditions, or a stroke of luck?

edit:better example
Unless there is too much power for the corner for the available grip/steering angle, most drifting is done at full throttle. The smoothest lines through single-apex corners are the highest-angle entry, followed by full power through the apex and exit.

This is true. While inaccurate, as all sims prove to be, LFS is the closest I've seen to achieving natural mid-drift stability. After applying the proper tire temperature "tweaks", at least.