FFB in GT3 cars has gone ultra light with heavy understeer

Discussion in 'Technical & Support' started by tlsmikey, Jul 27, 2018.

  1. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @whitmore The DAMPlugin now logs FFB output as standard, so you can view clipping like looking at a sound waveform. (just need to add it to a graph in motec)
     
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  2. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    yeah Lazza this mate
    help us with some info
    where we find telemetry software
    how we see clipping from telelmetry ?
    Edit :Lazzas responce was fast. :)
     
  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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  4. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    i m going to use DAM plugin for 1st time wish me luck :)
    cheers
     
  5. whip

    whip Registered

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    i brought this up months ago but was ignored and told thats how understeer works by the community
     
  6. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    Absolutely must traibrake in the Merc GT3.
    I understand what you mean, braking through T1 at Suzuka for example is a nightmare but there's no getting around the fact that if you want to be real fast in it one must stay on the brake almost all the way to the apex.
    The FFB of the Merc is completely different to every other car out there and it might as well be.
    People either love it or hate it, there doesn't seem to be any middle ground.
    The steering gets light on the limit and that, well, let's you know you are on the limit.
    With all the other cars I find myself often having to guess how much of the grip of the fronts I am using, not in the AMG.
    If you are understeering and at the same time complaining about the car swapping ends too easy on turn-in then you know what's wrong, you are not using the brakes as you should and try to simply steer the car into the corner.
    If you do that and slightly overspeed then you are going to understeer.
    Since overspeeding into a corner is the easiest thing in the world, using the brake on entry well past the turn-in point helps control the entry speed of the car.
    From the first moment I drove the car I got hooked and the way the steering felt had a lot to do with it.
    Half seem to think it's the best and the other half that it's completely broken.
    To me what people think should be taken with a grain of salt, especially after the Formula Two debacle, or at least that is what I consider it personally, where so many people complained about a perfectly fine FFB forcing S397 to change it, thankfully leaving the old FFB option in.
    As for the car being very loose on the default setup, well yeah, it is.
    That oversteer can be tuned out of the car so once you do that you can push it real hard, even without driving aids, just like we raced it.

    .
     
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  7. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    i always thought that if we had those steering options enable things maybe could be better but if you try find a good brake bias setting like 51:49 then understeer is gone while braking
    this car has more weight at the front yes ? so different behavior is expected as normal comparing to the rest gt cars
     
  8. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    Sorry, I think you misunderstood my post. I was talking about two different mods.
    The AMGT3 Merc (Apex Modding GT3) does not like trail braking as it is front heavy and oversteers a little (the way I have it set up)
    while the S397 GT3 Merc, I agree, you need to trail brake, because the car is sooo light in the front end that it understeers even when you set the suspension components to try to get oversteer. And that is exactly the problem I'm having (as stated earlier in the thread).
    Apparently in RL the Merc does understeer as noted by Whitmore in this quote
    So I have accepted that as the way things are and will try to learn a technique to get reasonable times from the car. I very much like the Merc but agree with the OP that it seems, to me, to be excessively light in the front for a car of it's size with such a big engine right up at the pointy end. That's why my "perception" was that it should be heavier into the corner. When I look at the car and see the real vehicle on the track at Bathurst 12hr, dropping over Skyline at pace I just don't get an image of understeer. Just goes to show how good those guys must be who drive these beasts, as Shane Van Gisbergen got a lap record in one and didn't look like he was struggling at all (mind you he put it into the wall 15 minutes from the end) o_O.

    I have to say though that I don't wish to give the impression that I'm complaining about the car, I was only confirming that the car feels light to me when compared to the other S397 GT3's and letting S397 see that tlsmikey isn't the only person experiencing this phenomenon. :)
    Thanks for the feedback.

    EDIT: My apologies, SVG did not get the lap record in this car, but he was at the pointy end for most of the race.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
  9. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    @tlsmikey try lower the preload setting from 11 to 5 at Garage
    also brake bias to 52:8/47.2
    light feel will gone and no more understeer
     
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  10. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    Having failed to secure a test with AMGs factory team I can do little to discredit your post:)
    I am not one to get caught up in the whole"pretend race driver" thingy,I love the AMG's handling and concentrate on finding the fastest way round a corner with it.
    I reckon it's a front-heavy car so one would expect it to feel heavier at the front but hell, whatever.
    The Apex AMG I am not a fun of, it is too snappy on entry and if one were to try and tame such tendencies they would be much better off going for the bimmer in the same mod,it's just plain faster and more satisfying.
     
  11. tlsmikey

    tlsmikey Registered

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    Gave it a shot. A tiny bit better, but still massive light understeer feeling in the Merc. I guess some people like it this way, but with a DD wheel it feels terribly unrealistic. I can't imagine any car race or street that would ever feel like this, especially one that has all its weight on the front. I think if you have a lower end wheel with a lot more dampening and friction built in, this car may feel like it communicates understeer better but in a DD wheel its massively exaggerated.

    I hope they fix it.
     
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  12. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    I can only compare to iracings amg gt3,and the two are miles apart imho,while iracings feels like a rwd front engine car,rf2’s feels like a rwd rear engine car with no weight on the front’s.
     
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  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Just to pick up on this point, more weight on the front gives better front end under acceleration, but when it comes to turning it's just more weight the tyres have to try and accelerate (think inertia) and that tends to give understeer because the increase in grip (due to the extra weight) isn't linear. Weight is good for traction, bad for cornering. (weight transfer is a bit different; I'm talking about static weight/mass at one end of the car)
     
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  14. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    yep i have a cheap Thrustmaster T150 so cannot really help with the light feel you experience but for sure brake bias helps with understeer while cornering and braking at same time
     
  15. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    If you have all weight up front, you might want to compensate the heavy steering with a steering geometry that makes the steering lighter.
    If you think more dampening on the wheel helps, you can adjust it from controller.json file, or put it to 0 and use the wheels own dampening.
    i'm not sure if i'm in minority with this but i think the cars steering feel might be close to what it actually is. I don't know of course, but that would be my quess. And atlest with my settings with osw it's not bad at all. Different compared to other gt3, but i kind of like it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
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  16. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    Sure enough more weight means more inertia but I think the "problem" is more about how the car steers and feels and that it does not give the impression it is front-heavy on the steering.
    And of course a heavy axle should slide earlier because the increased grip from more weight is overwhelmed by the increased inertia (hence the beauty of using wings) but there's a lot more that goes into this like tire width, suspension geometry/settings/height, aero etc so I do not take it as a given that a front heavy car will understeer mid-corner after it has settled down.
    That's good knowledge though for knowing how to manipulate weight bias where applicable.
     
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @christos_Swc Yep, as I'm sure you're more than aware, nothing is absolute :) I just tend to see generalizations in the other direction - weight bias towards the front gives more oversteer - and I wanted to address that one. Actual steering weight, and the response to a loss in front grip, depends on many many factors in real life. In rF2 though we know that decreasing caster gives less overall steering weight, and less persistent steering weight with grip loss, and gives a clearer feeling of understeer. Sounds like this car in particular has less caster.

    My hope with something like rF2 is that it can be relied upon as an indicator of real life, instead of another game that does what games do. We don't really get confirmation from the devs, or real life drivers who might have tested the cars, that behaviour like this is intended and real. So we all end up going around in circles with opinions based on other games or hearsay...
     
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  18. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    I jumped back into the old favorite, the AMG, looking to find any differences in handling with the tire physics changes.
    It's like I remembered it and the default FFB value is as ridiculously heavy as it has been from the start, as is the case with every S397 car.
    Not sure why S397 are doing this but I am using FFB between 0.15 to 0.25 nowadays...
    Yes, the steering gets real light the exact moment the front tires reach their limit, that to me is fantastic.
    In every other car I have driven I do not need FFB at all, beyond the nice feeling and the immersion, with the AMG the FFB actually does something useful beyond all that.
    So,to be exact, the steering is not light, it's super heavy, it's when understeer starts to set in that it goes light.
    Oh yeah, and the default setup is designed to scare people away and into the Corvette.
    Car's stiff like a brick and loose like, err, whatever.
     
  19. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    The Corvette and the AMG should have somewhat similar ffb, both are front engined-rear drive coupes. I could understand if the Mclaren & AMG were un-similar, but the Calloway and AMG should be near twins
     
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  20. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    Well here it has nothing to do with limit, the wheel is heavy when I turn like 10º and then after that boom! Super light! But once you put a wheel on a bump or curb the FFB work with the proper strenght, so it's very annoying to use. No other car makes that.
     
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