Released NEW! Endurance Pack - Now Available!

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by Christopher Elliott, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. Stefan_L_01

    Stefan_L_01 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    595
    Likes Received:
    386
    If someone can do this, it should
    a) immediatly lead to engine fault (as a blink of eye means several doozen revs of crankshaft with … 30000 rpm or more???)
    b) flat spot, sliding tire, whatever. In now way it should lead to a higher braking force than what you could Archive with your Brakes as the available tire grip can not be exceeded physically
    .
    If both doesn´t happen it sounds more like a flaw in the rf2 Physics rather than an issue of downshift protection
     
  2. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    296
    Key word here: It should.

    With newer cars it is more and more difficult to exploit that but still doable as I witnessed with some people.

    Back in a day there was this guy:
    Spielsammlung on youtube who used to post single laps in OW cars. His whole technique was based on downshifting rapidly down to often 1st gear, resulting in what I considered superbraking. It worked because you weren't penalized for doing so. Friend of mine who is a modder whose cars I bet half of you are using (won't name the cars because that's not what it all about here) is obsessed with creating physics which punish drivers for bad driving as much as it can. Like engine blowing after only few times (like 2-3 times) downshifting too quickly etc.

    One would ask me why does it bother me so much to see loopholes in cars so people can for example use lack of downshift protection to their advantage? Simple answer. We are driving in a sim which is short for simulation. What downshift exploit is simulating? You can't do it in real life so do we want to simulate the reality or just what fits the occasion?

    I'm one of those people who think a lot while driving, both in real life and while doing sim racing. My brain goes into "does it make sense" mode which refuses to make use of some exploits that I'm aware of which I know bring gains if used properly. I get that people like to drive how they want and however they can to go faster if sim allows for that. However that would be understandable if we were trying to clone or mimic games which have big margins when it comes to realism and physics. "That will do" approach. We are racing using rFactor 2 because we believe that's the place to get the best experience of driving digital version of a real car. If you need to drive a real car in a certain way, you shouldn't be able to drive it in any way you seem fit. If a real car has system A, B, C, D, G, K, M, Z. We should expect those systems to be present in a car that wants to replicate that car within the sim. If it doesn't then slowly develop such a system and implement it once it's ready. Therefore if a car has downshift protection, I say: bring it. To those who feel like someone is trying to take your style away with systems and features that prevent you from using and exploiting them I say there are games which doesn't force them on you.
     
  3. Stefan_L_01

    Stefan_L_01 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    595
    Likes Received:
    386
    First of all the rf2 should simulate the effect of a fast downshift correctly! That means engine or gear failure, immediate, if a threshold is exceeded. Life time reduction is ok but a mechanical part has also a threshold where it Fails immediatly, while for lower loads it´s Lifetime is reduced.
    Edit: Actually you could also calculate the acceleration of crankshaft, Pistons, gears if you shift back. So even if you reach a rev which is safe for your Piston (say, max Speed), if the components get accelerated from 1000revs to 9000 in a split second, this should lead to a failure.
    Using fast downshifts to a certain Level is ok, reminds me to the qualify lap of Senna in Suzuka (YouTube) where he shifts back quite agressivly, the engine howling up to revs not reached during acceleration. But this was qualify. There is also a race lap online, what a difference...
    You Need protection because you happen to blow your engine? you can set up a Minimum intervall time for shifts in Player.json, this works quite well to avoid sudden double shifts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  4. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    830
    after reading some posts i feel like exploiter highjacker pirate bombardier vintage lover .........
     
    David Kolody likes this.
  5. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    It should and it does.
    You can't simply abuse on reduction without flatspotting tires.
    If you go above certain rpm number your engine will be destroyed.


    Engine brake is something to be used within the working limits.
    For sure for a single hot lap you can abuse tires, engine.
    You also need to learn those tricks for qualification or to make an undercut to an opponent.

    I had a one hour race yesterday with Civics at Misano. Here is the telemetry of the fastest lap.
    As you see in reductions you try to get as close as possible to the 7000 rpm limit
    I only surpassed it four times during the whole race being the lap maximum between 6900-7000 rpm the remaining laps.

    Not even using 100% brake you can see there is already tire blockage. If you abuse more you simply don't make it.
    I was the only one who managed to do the race with soft tires and as you see I literally had no available front tires when I replaced them in my pit stop.

    upload_2018-6-20_23-28-10.png
    upload_2018-6-20_23-38-32.png
     
    2ndLastJedi likes this.
  6. Daniele Vidimari

    Daniele Vidimari Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2016
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    593
    It's up to the modder/car maker. I raced in a championship with the Simtek GT3 mod, the amount of DNFs for engine failure at the end of evey race was exhilarant. Downshift protection could have save them lol...
     
    David Kolody and mesfigas like this.
  7. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    937
    Why is that an config option?
    Shouldn't it be car parameter set by modder?

    Regarding exploits I hate that you need to use such stuff to be competitive.
    Its not an excuse, I am slow anyway but it kills immersion.
    I want to feel like driving a real car so it never occured to me to even try that stuff.
     
    David O'Reilly and David Kolody like this.
  8. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    1,083
    Hello.

    With my T500RS I almost never edit the multiplier coefficient.

    Most of the time I leave it at approximately 1.00.

    For S397 GT3 for example, the coefficient multiplier 1.00 suits me perfectly.

    But with the GTE (I do not know about the LMP), I have to put the coefficient multiplier at 2.00 to get as much FFB.

    Moreover, I prefer the FFB of the S397 GT3.
    For now I am a little disappointed.

    Do some of you have the same impressions ?

    I do not understand why the FFBs are so weak for these 3 cars, while 99% of the FFBs of the RF2 cars are strong enough without tuning.
     
  9. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    830
    the ffb on gt3 Mercedes car is a mystery to me
    i have to turn it really down to 0.50 to avoid oversteering while braking and cornering
    its the only car that happenning (Mercedes gt3 s397 car)
    but never heard of editing multiplier coefficient
    the only way to cure with the merc is to reduce ffb multi to lowest possible
     
  10. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    390
    That's not normally. 2.0 must Produce massive clipping. The Ffb is as strong as with the Gt3
     
  11. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    390
    The Ffb does not affect the driving behaviour of the car, but only the feeling so reducing the multiplier can't reduce oversteer
     
  12. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    830
    yeah makes sense but somehow i can turn better so i have better control of steering wheel
    it feels like the higher value of ffb doesnt let me control perfect and the car almost clipping and the car starts oversteer
    car settings cure the oversteer - understeer but it only happens with the mercendes
    rest cars no problem
     
  13. gunner1483

    gunner1483 Registered

    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    13
    i just noticed that the BMW M8 exhaust pipe on tle left hand side is missingo_O
     
  14. Voltaic

    Voltaic Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    65
    OMG! OMG! OMG! I LOVE IT! Thank you!!!
     
  15. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    296
    It's not a bug. It's a feature... No, really! Check it.
     
  16. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,602
    Likes Received:
    1,151
    Does anyone notice a difference between the gt3 and gte cars,I don’t know how to word it,but the the skins for the gte look like are done with Matt paint,while the gt3 cars shine and reflect light etc,the gte cars just look dull.

    Is this to do with low textures while the gt3 has 4K textures,and that’s why they eat up more fps
     
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,345
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    It's not that straightforward. I think a lot of real systems' complexity is because they're trying to work out what the tyres are doing using sensors; a game already knows exactly how much grip a tyre has (sliding percentage and the like) so it doesn't need all the same fancy systems. But of course from there it's still a matter of design as to how it will be done. I doubt it would be done like real life though, you start to rely more on any (inevitable) shortcomings of the tyre model (not just talking rF2 here) when you start analysing it too deeply.

    I understand, and I'm not suggesting downshift protection be available on all cars (I would categorise that a driver aid if you were to activate it on a car that doesn't have it in real life, despite not really aiding driving). A real car that has DSP you can turn off, I say allow it to be turned off in the game too. But if a real car has it without any option to turn it off, it should be that way in the sim.

    Turning off real (and permanent) parts of the car changes the car. It's like taking a 2017 F1 mod and taking the wings off because you preferred the wingless era. Just play a wingless era car (or make a mod; don't expect the game to do it for you).

    It's to stop accidental double-clicks when changing gears (sequentially, obviously). Some wheels, when new or old (depends on model) produce extra clicks when using the gearchange.

    It's nothing to do with downshift protection as a car electronics feature, and shouldn't really be included in any DSP discussion because it's about an entirely different issue.
     
    pkelly, Seven Smiles, Filip and 2 others like this.
  18. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    381
    I am missing something here.
    People abusing downshifts for slowing down trying to go faster is a reason to implement DP so they don't pay a price for this abuse?
    People putting the car in 1st for a 3rd gear corner to get on the brakes later is an argument for protecting them?
    Or those trying to imitate them who fail because they can't do it right and end up blowing their engines should get a helping hand so they too can join the club no sweat?
    IRL I can see why you'd want to protect them, you don't care for blown engines.
    In the virtual world I can also see why you wouldn't.
    But hey, only I can see it.
    And since you are all so pro-realism do you see anyone using this sort of technique IRL?
    No?
    Then why protect them so they can not just use it but abuse it in sim racing?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  19. ADSTA

    ADSTA Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,013
    Likes Received:
    1,369
    You obviously didn't even bother to look at any real life pictures of the M8.
    A minute of research and yours, Ronnie and my posts would never have happened. ;)
     
  20. ADSTA

    ADSTA Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,013
    Likes Received:
    1,369
    Imagine if the word got out that GTE cars have air con.:rolleyes:
    Sssshhh! We don't want 5 pages of "I don't want air con, it's killing my power! Besides I live at the north pole, we don't need air con here!"
     

Share This Page