Rain effects

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by green serpent, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. stonec

    stonec Registered

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    True, but the current "hard coded" evaporation rate that is used doesn't work for racing, it creates a situation where the racing line is bone dry and the off-line is over 90% wet. AFAIK the sim doesn't take any stance on the type of material, the conditions, etc. There is only one, fixed evaporation rate.
    No, it doesn't depend on any of these from my experience in doing league racing in wet. But it would be nice if it did.
     
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  2. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    An additional parameter added to the real road to alter the roughness of the racing line as you go would work. Would be consistent with real life aswell as with the development up to this point IMO.

    EDIT: Would eventually add to the dynamics of oval racing aswell.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  3. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    Does rf2 model all those variables,or is it just one instance of asphalt
     
  4. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    A track maker can model all those for texture, base grip, & wet grip (*), but I don't believe they'll change the water evaporation rate except for the amount of cars passing through.

    (*) All the sims I'm familiar with can model texture & base grip and you can assign many different pavements, with wet grip depending on whether the sim includes weather (e.g. AC doesn't) and whether the wet grip is assignable.
     
  5. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Problem with rain on track in rF2 is that it accumulates rain like if it was a boat, no infiltration variable like real world roads have...
     
  6. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    The non racing line is usually more grippy under rain due to its greater roughness according to Pedro Martinez De la Rosa. Rubbered layer might have some influence as well but seems to be smaller.

    Roughness is a variable that can be configured in the TDF file for each material within the scene. Furthermore, from what I have heard from my Racerfactor mates in the openwheeler Champ, it dies produce a bigger effect in wet than in dry conditions. Hence, it should be the right parameter to use for the problem to solve.

    From my understanding, this difference in wet conditions in favour of nonracing line would be just a bit costly to implement from track modder point of view.

    It would basically consist on duplicating base road material and changing its prefix to a different one using a different groove. The result would be a bit "pixelated" and would have to be done manually more or less as like rF1 skid marks.

    It should be noted that most wet lower adherence due to surface polishing should occur around turns (where grip is actually taken to the limit). The polishing in straights is much less and its effect on handling is also less important since grip is not taken to the limit.

    The good thing about this is that in order to implement a slower dry racing line in wet conditions is not very time consuming. Only the tris from the curves where the fast line passes need to assigned to a new "polished material". Pretty much the same thing as a road patch.

    On the other hand, none of the track modders seem to have ever cared about this. It was for sure in our hands to exploit this feature. I include myself here as well and Euskotracks, the track modding team I form part of.

    Furthermore, nobody has ever asked for this feature to be implemented either.
     
  7. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    It might be the racing line that is less rough...
     
  8. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    My guess is they use the rain tire to compute some sort of drying affect. Possibly similar to how the live track computes rubber build-up. So if 4 tires run the racing line then x amount of wet is removed. If 20 cars with 4 tires are running nearly the same line, then the racing line dries faster than the off line sections which would only dry due to ambient conditions. AGAIN... just a guess.
     
  9. stonec

    stonec Registered

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    Hm, maybe you are right, I will test and confirm. My understanding was and still is that because wetness is just part of the realroad, the wet dynamics operate the same way as realroad, that is, it's hardcoded in the game and there is no way to adjust how it behaves with TDF or any other values.
     
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  10. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    @lagg can you confirm that it is indeed possible to affect wet grip by changing groove parameters in tdf?

    EDIT: The parameter in question is Roughness. At some point it was introduced by ISI.
    upload_2017-9-20_0-16-0.png
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
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  11. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    The wet mult parameters in the tdf are indeed no longer relevant. Everything now is done with surface roughness=(x, y).
    The rougher the more grip in the wet. The first paramameter is for adhesion, second for micro and third is for macro grip. Those work together with the relevant entries in the realtime section of the tgm files.

    Most third party tracks have ignored those or were not aware of those yet. It does have quite a significant effect on the tires and should be if possible used and adjusted. Also from my experinece all redundant entries (sink values etc.) from rf1 should be removed and adjusted acordingly. The tires behave quite different if those parameters are propperly applied. Tire wear is affected aswell.
     
  12. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Thanks for confirming. So as I said having a more slippery racing line under wet conditions is easily achievable and depends exclusively on modders.
     
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  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Or an extra AIW parameter (or two), which the AIW editor could also (optionally) auto calculate with a slider or two (using corner sharpness etc, which it already knows because it's the AIW... and the AIW represents the fastest and likely most used path, so... yeah, seems obvious to me).

    Yes, material roughness can already be used to effect this, but as you said it would be 'pixelated' unless you spent a lot of time doing it. And evidently people aren't willing to do that, because they haven't been.
     
  14. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    It seems obvious to me that the way to go is what I propose or something alike. The automatic obvious solution you propose is complicating things unnecessarily IMO.

    - Any automatic solution is likely to fail or to introduce an unneeded necessity to permanently be checking whether you are in the fast line or not. The roughness of the track is a characteristic of the track so should be implemented in the track itself.

    - the pixelation shouldn't be much different to actual rubbered line or to the wet to dry transition. An intermediate roughness material can be used to smooth the transition if desired.

    - Doing this from a modders point of view is not much work. I would say no more than 60 minute work by track. Nothing in comparison to planting the typically thousands of trees that are present in many tracks which does take a lot of work.

    - The reason for tracks not using this feature is not related to being costly or difficult to implement. The possible reasons why I think that nobody is using this are:
    1. Poor documentation regarding rain. Roughness was introduced without saying a word. As it seems reading this thread many people were unaware of how to modify wet grip. Old roadwetgrip values never made any difference.
    2. Modders haven't realized that they could use this trick. Maybe some of them figured out that they could do what I propose but since nobody claimed for it they wouldn't care to do the job to implement it.
     
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  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Technically I think they did describe it in a build note, but I agree it's not clear for people to even try and use it.

    I'm not that familiar with track modding - if it's possible to 'blend' surfaces then that would indeed be comparable to realroad (which isn't patchwork, but works in a gradient across each poly) and that would suffice. And I'm open to there being some clever way to apply several materials to the road surface using some sort of applied driving line. But I don't really think that's overall a better goal than applying the AIW in some way, because it already exists.

    And for the record, I don't see this as needing to be an AIW reference in realtime. The AIW road smoothing parameters could be put into the realroad on track load (assuming realroad would also handle smoothing) and it would be handled with the realroad. Just like I'd like a WetGrooveEffects line in the tyres which uses the current rubber level to affect grip in the wet (alongside GrooveEffects). But I suggested that something like 4 years ago and never got anywhere.

    So what I'm proposing is an improvement that would need some game-side work. What you're proposing is already possible, it just needs to be used.
     
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  16. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    As always, the best think for judging something's usability is via testing. I will try to apply the methodology I propose to one of my tracks. I have already selected it because I find it especially appropriate for testing different driving lines. It will be Pocoyo Park. I will also update it to DX11 in order to get familiar with it. I hope to get some feedback regarding result and if the pixelation effect is noticeable.

    Maybe it will clarify if it is a good way to go or something more radical needs to be implemented. Let's see...
     
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  17. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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  18. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Reduced roughness material already assigned for the "driving line" in the first sector of the track .
    I already received a pm from a person interested in testing when finished.
    I also attach an image of the TDF file I will be using for initial tests. I will probably introduce some "new asphalt" patches throughout the track.
    As you see driving line is also a bit more bumpy. Final values here need to be tested as well.
    upload_2017-9-22_2-28-24.png
    descarga (2).jpg
    descarga.jpg
    descarga (1).jpg
    upload_2017-9-22_2-31-16.png
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  19. Pauli Partanen

    Pauli Partanen Registered

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  20. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    seems a-bit 'motor-boaty' I would think a rain tire should at least provide some straight line stabilty in all but monsoon conditions.
     
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