Rfactor 2 future: Should we (or just I) be worried?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Christos Segkounas, Jun 28, 2017.

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  1. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    rFactor2 has the claim/standard that when you put the right numbers in, it spits out the right behaviour.
    That´s what one developer said here literally few weeks/months ago. And I´ve heard it somewhere else earlyer.
    Correct me if I´m wrong Devs.
     
  2. Kelju_K

    Kelju_K Registered

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    oh yes, cry the devs to your rescue:rolleyes:

    so if it spits out the right behaviour, simracers in general do their job better than their real life counter parts? better than guys who have started driving at the age of entering elementary school, if not earlier?
    excuse me but i find that hard to believe, that us, who only see trough narrow 27" two dimentional window, without feeling anything in our asses that the real drivers do, do generally better??
    The best simracers i know have 30-50 kmh higher speeds in (high speed) corners, and 4 seconds faster laptimes, than the real life guys who have been doing their thing for ages.
    so either we who bought a wheel and pedals, and started something as a fun hobby, are generally more talented, OR something is off with the cars.
    take your pick. i dare you.
     
  3. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    This is where I and the rest of the world are not on the same page.
    For some reason people assume that once you get the real life data, you punch them in and get the end result.
    And depending of the accuracy of the physics simulation you may or may not get a result close to the real thing.
    Guys, the end product will be what I want it to be.
    If I want the end product to be a friendly car then ,sure, I will throw in the real world data and then I can manipulate every single parameter to whatever degree and towards any direction I, the developer, want to.
    Developers will review the behavior of the car and make changes according to their own desires of what they want to be offering to the world.
    Wasn't the F2 car made using real world data?
    Yes.
    Did or did they not, Studio 397, recently change the car so the low speed steering is much heavier?
    Yes they did.
    Was or wasn't the F2 developed using real world data?
    Sure it was, we just said that.
    So they took the real world data, applied them and later deviated from them as they saw fit.
    They did it later, they could have done it before firsdt launch, doesn't matter, point is, it's great to have the real data but you can make every value what you want it to be.
    Easy enough to understand.
    If their problem was that the car might have deviated from the real life one because the physics are not accurate enough, really how difficult would it have been to get some driver feedback, I mean surely Radical themselves would have been happy to offer their own feedback.
    What we got is not an unfinished product, physics wise, it's what they wanted to bring out.
    It was by choice.
     
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  4. Kelju_K

    Kelju_K Registered

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    THIS!!!!
    the real life data is not much more than marketing gimmick/defence strategy for the authors creation. which in the end is allways HIS opinion what feels realistic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  5. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    LOL Kelju! You assume a lot of things into all this!
    1. This what I posted was not an opinion!
    2. Surely can nevertheless something be wrong with the car! As christos mentioned, it´s a sum of many variables and numbers!
    If all data would be right, maybe the problem is in the tyres?
    3. If it was a general problem with the for example suspension-math/engine whatever you might call it, all cars would feel off, no?
    4. Sorry, don´t remember the whole thread, but YOU drove this just car in reality?
    5. When was it that ISI or Studio 397 ever did marketing?? (like this)
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  6. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    The answer to this is quite easy, so much that is should not even be necessary. The difference between driving the real deal and the simulation is like the difference between performing a surgery on the battlefield and in a operating room.
    Fact is that real world drivers are subject to all sort of environmental conditions that force them to hold back a bit. Simulator driver are not subject to all these conditions, even in the simulated vehicle would be more accurate than the real thing, simulator driver will be able to push the envelope beyond the limit. Most real world driver don't have the chance to drive their car hours and hours daily, for month, or years. They have the time that free practice, qualify and race give them. Checkered flag, stop, bye bye see you next event.
    Real world driver can't afford to crash each turn of a track, many times, until they find that tiny line, that tiny condition in which they can make it faster, and then, can repeat them lap after lap because they don't have environmental conditions buzzing their senses.
    So, for that reason, real world driver know that the perfect lap does not exist, and that even if you have been very fast now, there are places in which you lost time. But next try, even if the final laptime will be pretty close, the pattern of losts - gains, will be different.
    If they could pasteclip all the segment of a real world lap, into a perfect lap, they would not be able to achieve what you can do on a simulator, because you can still crash the car and hit esc, try it again, and again, and again. I'm not a good driver, but I've seen some, yes they are fast, but many of them, are just that.. fast.. if a race is longer than 30 laps, they are unable to end it.
     
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  7. hardtohandle

    hardtohandle Registered

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    Hi guys I feel so strongly about this and agree so strongly with OP that I come here to S397 for the first time since the ISI days to make my first post.

    Theres many aspects to the whole debate as has been covered in this thread, I'm not going to go into all that, I'll just say that I feel strongly that the new mods that have come out in S397 era are hugely different from the ISI era mods, they are far to easy to drive you just jump in and drive it like you stole and nothing too bad is going to happen. There is no challenge any more, whatever the issue is, it's just no where near as challenging as it was in the ISI era. I'm talking about the mods not the sim.

    The first time S397 put a mod out my heart sank. I hope it was just an initial mistake but it has proved to be a continuing trend. The GT500, USF2000, Radical, all disasters for me. I'm bored of them after 20 laps. The magic is gone. RF2 has moved half way to becoming like automobilsta.

    Maybe your correct that the new mods are more realistic than the ISI era mods. But lets be serious guys, you don't need to to look at no numbers in a spreadsheet to know these cars are not anything like realistic. Or at least, it is not realistic to expect you could drive like that in real life and not wreck that car very quickly. Your gonna have to be somewhat more careful in a real Radical I am sure. The challenge has gone, and that's a tragedy.

    I got RF2 quite near the start, one of the early builds. I've loved RF2. I still do. But even so, for me, which is funny now on looking back to the start, but the only mods really think are fantastic even today are basically just the original ISI mods + probably just 2 3rd party mods. The original Celica GTO, and the Lola T280.

    I started simracing directly with rf2, and it's still the only sim I play. I have tried the others. It's amazed me, its absolutely amazed me that like OP I have felt in a minority that appreciated the hard core challenge of RF2. But I fully accept it, that making the cars easier to drive is what a lot of people want.

    But just think about this. What have you got if you take the hardcore challenge factor out of rf2? Nothing.

    Not to me anyway.

    Well that's not totally fair, there are plenty of things rf2 has got, real road, day/night, various things. Those things are good, but its not the reason I love RF2. That relates to the cars and the way the drive, the challenge and the overall race experience and immersion. I think that's true for a lot of us. It's about the cars, and that's all changed. No amount of day night transitions can make up for that.

    So I maintain that ultimately if you take the hardcore out of RF2, you basically got nothing.

    And I freely accept that may make the game a tonne more popular than ever, but I will be gone with a tear in my eye.

    Tragic though it is, in some ways I do not feel bitter about it. I have loved this sim and despite some of the horrors I have endured over the years I have always loved it. So I've had my years of enjoyment out of it. I wish that could continue, but if you choose to take it in another direction for commercial or other reasons I understand.

    So no hard feelings. I hope you will give this some consideration.

    Personally I hope very much you will take RF2 it back to its roots, like Johnny Cash. Make them mods the way you used to in ISI era.

    Better to dominate a niche sector, than to be nobody in the mainstream.

    Whatever you do, I just want to say thanks for all of the efforts over the years. You might not always have felt I was so appreciative heh! RF2 is an awesome thing, it amazes me still today RF2 is the only thing out there for me, and literally nothing comparable exists even today. So I wish you S397 boys all the best with it no matter what. Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  8. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Darn -don't put this into my head )-:

    I really hope this is not the way it's going with future rf2 sim cars

    397 are doing a great job so far
    -radical is a blast but yes not depth of a lot of existing rf2 cars but perhaps the real world one is same, be very interesting if they do the SR8 which isn't a easy to manage track day car

    Still lots existing that are nice loose & twitchy
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  9. stonec

    stonec Registered

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    You are drawing way overly strong conclusions based on three cars. GT500 was a car that started its development in 2013 (screenshots on virtualr.com), so most of the car was done under ISI. USF2000 was a modded project originally that S397 took over, the modder had a big impact on the car. Radical is a trackday car that's supposed to be easy compared to most other rF2 cars. Besides, if you have a look in the credits page of the game who are building the cars now, it's the same guys that were working for ISI now working for S397 (Michael and Marek), so that puts a nail in the coffin regarding your theory.

    My theory is that at most what has changed is that the baseline setups are a little more newbie friendly now than they were in ISI times (ISI used to often provide baseline setups that nobody could drive, very high rear cambers etc.). Already the setup makes a huge difference and is many times all it takes to make a car feel "alive" versus "safe".
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  10. hardtohandle

    hardtohandle Registered

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    No it doesn't.
    I just come here to voice my opinion.
    Many thanks!
     
  11. bwana

    bwana Registered

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    Good to see you back H2H .. l agree about the early cars but all is not lost . At least we still have the option to drive those pre S397 beasts and a few 3pa cars are on the same level as 32puxels masterpiece or the gorgeous T280. At the same time some newer releases are certainly good to drive .. it's about choice with rf2 or rf1 and that is why it's the best sim .. if S397 get behind 3pa modders and those gurus of mod creation get a help along the future is bright for new and veteran rf2 users
     
  12. hardtohandle

    hardtohandle Registered

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    No, no it's not. I see you added to your post.
    I wish it was that simple, but it is not.
    Sup Bwana :) Long time.
    Thanks for likes
     
  13. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    As Stonec says the cars are easier to drive out of the box due to the better/newbie friendly default setups, ISI enjoyed making them hard for us to master whereas now we're given a better basic base setup. So to be quick & consistent with a good tire life you still need to find a setup that fits your personal liking, the default ones are safe & slow as I've found out online...nothing wrong with that at all IMO.

    I still think it's early days as to whether S397 are heading in the right direction, but then what is the right direction? It's no doubt different for everybody and their needs, I'm perfectly happy to go a long for the ride and see what happens, also I'm happy to just race whenever with whatever S397 give us, without worrying too much about the future which essentially is looking bright I think.
     
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  14. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    But they do use real life data,it's not a lie,now how much of that data is unchanged at release is anyone's guess,because who know if the real data even gives a usuable experience.
    Fact is they do start off with real data tho
     
  15. Magus

    Magus Registered

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    The USF2000 is a great car to drive, full of fun and frolics.
    GT500 was the worse car released alongside ISI's 370z, just both seemed very 'wrong' for me for different reasons.
    Radical SR3 sits somewhere inbetween, feels kind of right but at times not so.

    I've not sat and driven any of these cars IRL, just a perspective of sim-racing and what I feel the car should be doing with what I'm doing.

    I'm keeping my glass half-full with regards to future cars released by S397 but atm there is definitely a big difference in feeling of difficulty and concentration required between driving ISI's Corvette GT2 compared to S397's GT500. I know they are completely different vehicles, but I am inferring to the core amount of concentration that is required as a simracer to (A) keep the car on the track & (B) be competitive in it.

    I too hope we don't end up with a 'dumbed' down sim to cater for the masses. For me one of the greatest pleasures of rF2 has been learning to drive the Skip Barber competitively as the 1st time I drove it I just thought how ridiculously difficult the car was. I'm still not that fast in it but from where I started to where I am now has been a labour of love. This dedication required is what has added so much depth to rF2 for me as a sim/game.
     
  16. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    How feelings can differ: I feel the USF2000 and the GT500 to be one of the best (and most realistic) sim-cars ever created!
    Don´t know if Jürgen BY tweaked something at the physics of the Celica GTO (I think not), but if not this is one of the most
    unrealistic sim-cars ever! Ever checked with rearwing at lower degrees??
     
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  17. bwana

    bwana Registered

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    Sounds like your exploiting some bug with GTO . Weight transfer is brilliant in the GTO to me
     
  18. Brack Jabham

    Brack Jabham Registered

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    All I have no idea how these cars handle in real life. I have always been bothered by low speed grip in every car. If I run off, I always have trouble getting back on the circuit. That being said, is difficult to drive a measure of real life? If race cars are stupidly hard to contol, why does anyone build real life race cars like that. They should be reasonably easy to drive as a new driver, but challenging to drive fast, otherwise why aren't we all professional race drivers? So I agree that maybe recent setups are easier to drive, but can good setups mean driving fast is challenging? Just a question, I don't know the answer
     
  19. Kelju_K

    Kelju_K Registered

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    you are talking about different cars.
    you a are talking (i assume) the original -86 GTO by 32 pixel, and Peterchen is talking about that (god awful conversion) -87 GTO by Jürgen.
     
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  20. Kelju_K

    Kelju_K Registered

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    Different taste in challenge. some of us like that we have to consentrate all the time like a mf. i guess because we think that the real drivers have to aswell. If the car is too easy to drive, there is not enough challenge to even keep the mind in what we are doing, and our toughts start to wonder off from driving. therefore we love something that is difficult. therefore we have put rf2 over the other titles in the first place.
    and we just want that we are not forgotten, sweeped under the carpet, for newcomer to buy, and like the game.

    But when ever you express any toughts in that direction, you get attacked by a hord of people who like easier cars. it pisses me off soooo much.

    I wish that i could (or even knew how:rolleyes:) to put things out as nicely as hard2handle did in his post, but look what happened right after?
    "so that puts a nail in the coffin regarding your theory." was the response.

    i know it's coming even if i put the effort to be nice about it. so i wont hold back one bit. saves me a response usually, and since im good at being a cunt, it would be a waste not to be one :D.
     
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